[Music]
I got it!
[Music]
Good afternoon everybody!
Oh yeah!
Adam Curry in Palo Alto.
And Dave Weiner in Palo Alto.
Yeah!
Ain't that something, man?
Is this the first time, Dave,
that we're doing this together?
Oh yeah, this is the first time
, man.
It's like the one, the zero
time zone trade secrets.
Yowzo, I'm trying to think,
should I look at you or should
I?
Oh, shit.
I wouldn't blame you.
Clearly not.
I wouldn't blame you if you
didn't.
It's alright, I mean, you know.
So let me just explain the
setup here.
We're in my room at the Ricky
Lee Jones Hyatt.
Hickey's Riot, actually.
Ricky's Riot.
The Riot Hyatt.
And, yeah.
Palo Alto, California.
Yeah, Sunday afternoon.
It is November 7th, 2004.
Let's see, time is, what are we
at here?
4.30.
And so we got two microphones,
which is cool.
Because Dave is wearing my love
microphone.
And I've got this new USB thing
, which I'm still trying to
figure out if I like it.
It sounds okay, though.
So how you feeling?
Day after a blogger call.
I'm wearing the lav mic, so I
wonder if that means I can
speak Dutch and let the dog out
.
Yeah, but only if you roll up
my spliff as well.
Well, they don't let me do that
.
Unfortunately, I can't join you
in that.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, I'm tired.
It's been, you know, whatever.
For everybody else, blogger
cons a one day or two day or
three day.
In your case, I guess, what,
four or five day thing?
Yeah, in total.
For me, it was...
It was a couple months.
It started in the summer,
basically.
It was after the Democratic
Convention.
That's when you got started.
And they saw me on The Daily
Show with John Stewart.
They were talking about me on
The Daily Show with John
Stewart.
And apparently...
About you?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And apparently...
What do you think?
Right, and this was the deal.
Because going to Harvard didn't
get Stanford interested.
Seeing you on Stewart.
Going to the Silicon Valley
icon for 20 years didn't get me
an invite.
Being on The Daily Show, or
mentioned on The Daily Show,
has been proven.
It's a real draw.
What happened was they were
covering the blogger, what they
called blogger boulevard at the
DNC.
Right.
They were there as well, right?
The Daily Show?
I actually didn't see them.
Samantha Bee, I think, was
running around talking to
people.
Yeah, they were doing sort of
weird things.
So they walked up to a blogger
and they said, you know, what's
the deal?
Any real bloggers here?
And whoever it was said, yeah,
Dave Weiner from Scripting News
is here.
Yeah.
And so then they saw that at
Stanford.
And apparently, this is like a
big academic credential getting
mentioned on The Daily
Show with...
It's an academic credential?
Apparently.
I love it.
I mean, you know, with all due
respect.
I mean, they were very nice.
Stanford was very good and the
facilities were great.
Stanford, I thought, was
awesome.
Really?
Yeah, they don't really have
campuses like that in the
Netherlands, do they?
No.
I mean, there's...
I don't think there's anything
even...
It is exactly...
Well, Harvard was like that.
Well, it made a little bit
different.
I think Stanford is pretty much
the picture-perfect image of a
university campus.
It's pretty good.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And people are doing
interesting stuff.
There was a dance marathon
against age yesterday or the
day before Friday.
Right, that's right.
Or they were soliciting people
for it.
I don't know.
It's just...
And you see people walking
around with disregard for
traffic because there is none.
But totally in this elevated
state of I'm learning, I'm
intelligent, I'm having a good
time,
I'm floating on air.
You know what I mean?
Does that make any sense?
No, that sounds really dreamy
and ridiculous.
Maybe I need to roll up another
one.
Hold on.
I think you need to get your
daughter...
I think your secret success of
your podcast is that you have
your daughter around to keep
your bullshit in.
That's right, Dad.
Shep a fuck up.
Stop that.
Stop lying.
I guess I sort of have to play
that role here.
No, that's not what's going on.
First of all, we got very, very
lucky on the weather.
Right on.
The weather doesn't have to be
this nice.
Praise the gods.
And early...
Yeah, I mean that's a thank god
sort of thing.
And Stanford is kind of in an
idyllic location.
I mean it's from weather and
landscape and it's very
beautiful.
And yeah, I mean we had, I
thought, well there's something
incredible that happens.
We play sort of a bit of rou
lette with how many people we
open the roles up to.
We don't know what the no show
rate is going to be, who's
going to be there and what not.
But somehow it just ends up
that the right number of people
show up.
And it was consistent every
single session.
Yeah, it was 90% full.
Because I was walking from room
to room.
And after lunch, I actually don
't think I could sit in any of
the rooms.
Really?
I was standing room only for
like two people.
Oh, right.
So it was perfect.
It's alright because I kept
leaving anyway.
Yeah, I was so afraid that
during the podcasting session
that the other two sessions
wouldn't
have any traffic.
Yeah, it was really interesting
.
There was a woman from BBC who
came and she came all the way
from the UK, I thought, to
be part of the podcasting
discussion.
And when I poked my head into
the newbie session that Rebecca
McKinnon was leading, she was
there.
She was there.
So that was where --
Which is where she belonged
probably if she wanted to learn
.
Rebecca, it was really funny
because I talked with Rebecca
as we were planning this.
And she had been at Blagercon 2
but not at Blagercon 1.
And she had done the
international discussion at the
first one.
And she was a good choice for
that because she spent so many
years in China and Japan.
And I think she was even in
Korea for some time.
Really?
And in the closing session at
these Blagercons, we always
sort of ask, what could we do
better
next time?
What should we do differently
and so forth?
And one of the things that came
up that I had forgotten was
that at the first Blagercon
we had a whole track for new
bies.
And just the whole idea at that
time was trying to sort of indo
ctrinate and evangelize the
Harvard community on web blogs.
And then somehow we lost that
in number two.
And we didn't have anything for
newbies.
And so we brought it back and
it was wonderful to see this.
And not only was it for blog
ging newbies but it was also for
Blagercon newbies, for people
who weren't familiar with the
unconference format.
And so there were 14 sessions
so it's impossible to even
review them all.
There was only two that I didn
't actually participate in in
some fashion.
There was a quality, there was
a variance in qualities.
Sometimes people were up and
there was really exciting
discussions.
I thought the podcasting
session went beyond
expectations.
And the only expectation we
really had was as long as we're
all in the same room and
meet each other, we already
have, that was what we
discussed because we really
wanted
to get out of it.
It's so hard to do anything
like that in an hour and 15
minutes.
Complicated ideas don't really
come out in situations like
this.
They do not.
They totally don't.
I mean that's what you do I
guess in your sort of solo
podcast and the writing that
we do on the blogs and stuff
like that.
No, it was important.
First of all, what was really
cool about this was that the
podcasters were just like,
God, they were just such
positive, smiling, happy people
.
Yeah, weren't they though?
Dave Slusser.
I mean, you know, I had no idea
what Dave Slusser looked like,
right?
I didn't either.
I never met him.
Dave's long hair.
He's got long hair.
Well, I'd seen a picture but
you couldn't really see how
long the hair was in the
picture.
That wasn't my image at all.
Really?
No.
What did you think he would
look like?
Oh my gosh.
I can't think of, you know, I
don't want to like, I want to
give you a name of an actor
or something like that.
Yeah, right.
Actors are always good.
Right, but it's like, I'm not
thinking.
It's no big deal.
Don't worry about it.
I thought straighter and not
smiling so much, you know what
I mean?
Oh really?
No, I told you.
I think about Dave Slusser is
the guy smiling all the time.
Same thing with Dawn and Drew.
They have this, you know, sort
of twinkle in their eye.
They do.
She's a lot cuter than I
thought she'd be.
Let me tell you that.
So I hung out with them last
night.
Yeah, I know.
Oh, you went to the movies with
them.
Yeah, well, before I get to
that part, before I get to that
part, we came up with one thing
about that was needed at Blog
gerCon.
What's that?
And this is, you know, this is
totally a Dawn and Drew and
Adam discussion.
Let me just make sure we're
still recording.
We're doing good.
So at the end, someone
suggested in a rather brutal
way, but you know, it was like,
well,
I'm sort of just drinks that
rot our teeth out, can we have
some water?
Yeah, no kidding.
Totally.
So Dawn and Drew and I say, you
know, and we also think a bowl
of tic-tacs.
Yeah.
That would be good.
Because you know, you sit in
there all day and you don't eat
and you're drinking coffee.
And you get the shitty breath
after it's all over.
That's what the tic-tacs are
for.
Believe me.
I was walking around the same
place you were.
Yeah, that place kind of had a
little thing going there.
We got kind of stanky.
Well, you know, the water, we
ordered water.
The water, I did just in show.
Oh man, I just, you know, I don
't know.
Well, you don't see me all that
often, but like I always was a
bottle of water.
Yeah, sure.
And so I said, we need to have,
that was the first thing I said
.
We got to have bottled water
during the breaks, but I don't
know.
What happened?
Yeah, well.
That's all that went wrong.
Right.
That's what I'm going to say.
I was just basically thanking
the good Lord and Murphy and
whoever else that, you know,
yeah, the other thing is, and
this is always a problem, is
that the air conditioning never
supports the number of bodies
we put in the room.
That didn't bother me.
I had no problem with the air.
No, I'm usually so.
It got a little stuffy.
It got a little stuffy there.
Yeah, near the end of the pot,
but I was also just, you know.
Yeah, you were the one that was
eating the room up basically.
Yeah, adrenaline was flowing
and I was getting warm, so I
totally felt that at a certain
point, but it was not bad at
all.
And I just wanted to say that
the, what'd you call them, your
monitors, that what you
call them?
Yeah, we call them monitors.
Yeah, monitors.
They were, I mean, you couldn't
tire them out.
No, they were great.
Jerry Springer would give his
left nut to have these people
holding the mic in his audience
.
Yeah.
Or Oprah or whoever, and they
were really good.
And Mike the AV, Mike was the
name, right?
Yeah, every guy liked Mike,
yeah.
He was like a gargoyle.
He had this pack and he had all
this stuff on him and he had
all kinds of bags and
everything,
which he didn't have to, oh,
because everything worked.
Yeah, pretty much.
He could split the screens, the
audio was there, you know, the
wireless mic's always
crap out once in a while, but
you know, it's whatever, and it
just worked.
It was high quality shit, I
thought.
Well, it wasn't just him.
It was also John Harrison who
does the AV.
John Harrison, John Harrison,
yeah.
For a standard, he wasn't there
, but all the setup and stuff.
And that's his system,
basically.
Right, that was cool.
And it's a good school.
I mean, they basically have
great facilities.
And yeah, that worked.
The major problem was actually
the registration system and
badges.
That was pretty funny because I
wasn't registered.
Right, yeah.
And my friend Ron was
registered as number eight.
Yeah, I registered.
And then he became me.
He stole my identity.
Yeah, well, you're lucky we let
you in, you know.
Well, they weren't going to let
me in.
I'm really sorry.
Well, like they were told not
to let you in.
Jennifer, who was the, yeah,
Jennifer Sander.
Jennifer happens to be the
executive director of their
Internet and Society Center.
Yeah, okay, well.
She's kind of like, you know,
she's like the boss's boss's
boss of everybody, except
for Larry.
Right.
She was Larry's boss.
Yeah, she recognized that I
should probably get a badge.
Yeah.
And we basically had a policy
that, you know, we were going
to basically try to have a
streamlined for the people that
, you know, we knew that there
were people who would show
that hadn't registered.
In fact, they had emailed me to
that.
There must have been.
How many do you think crashed
just last minute?
Probably 20?
Who cares?
I don't really know.
It doesn't matter.
I'm just interested as a
percentage.
It's really, really impossible
to say.
I mean, that's the funny thing.
You would think that we would
have a way of knowing even, I
don't even know how many
people were there at them.
I mean, you know.
I mean, because there were lots
of no shows and there were lots
of people who weren't
registered that ended up coming
.
So yeah, I mean, we're going to
estimate that because basically
I'm going to go by 90%.
Basically say 90% of our
capacity was full at all times.
And not that you really sort of
get any, you know, data from
that for the next time.
Because you know, every time we
do it, the show is bigger, you
know.
Yeah.
And so by extrapolation, when
we think they, you know, the
next.
That was a good point that
someone brought up, you know.
What do we do next year?
Well.
Shea Stadium?
No.
And I think the format is kind
of, it's kind of already
getting a little old actually.
A little tired?
I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, I, you know, I kind of,
it's like an, almost like an
engineering thing.
I kind of want to figure out if
there isn't a way to.
Turbocharge it.
Or, well, you know, because
yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean, I did in a couple of
sessions that I was in.
I tried in a, like in the, in
the core values of the web that
Mary Hodder was leading.
Yeah, I saw some of that.
They kind of, I thought, had
gotten, and I want to be clear.
This was just my opinion
because there were other people
that felt it was going really
good.
I walked into it and I thought,
well, these, it's bogged down
here.
It's not getting anywhere.
And so I said, why don't we
just put the mics down for a
while and like just shout out
what
you want to say.
Let's see what's formal.
They do want to do it.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And I, and I respect it.
It was funny.
Well, I mean, Stacey Kramer,
she was there from.
She's in the hotel.
Yeah.
She wants to talk about.
Big content.
She also had written.
She's an online journalism
review.
She has written for an online
journalism review and for Wired
.
She writes for Wired News and
stuff too.
And she, she was funny.
You know, when I suggested, she
turned around and she says, we
can't do that, Dave.
Don't hold the mic.
And it was like, and then she
caught herself.
She says, uh, you know, this is
how I fight.
That's just how I feel.
It was like, cool.
All right.
And later on she came, she said
, you know, I got, I hope I didn
't hurt your feelings.
And I said, no, I mean, real
emotion is good.
That's what we want.
Yeah.
Well, I said, all we, all we
caught you doing, Stacey was
being human.
Yeah.
Stop that.
Which is really in a way, it's
sort of like, if we get people
to behave human in these
conferences, we win, you know?
Cause so much of it is, you
know, conference going is like,
you know, here's my space and
my play and my strategy and my,
You know what play is in Dutch?
Toilet.
Yeah.
So you say in the podcast, in
the podcast play.
If what you leave behind,
before you play.
Before we send our packets.
It's my little packet switch
network down there, wherever
that may be.
It's true though.
So, so yeah.
So I mean, I would think that,
you know, where this is all
sort of, this all leads to, you
know, the extreme example of
this is, I don't know how
people are going to take this,
but
it's like massage class.
You know, I used to go to these
11 day massage class, you know,
and like, I like to say,
like, doesn't matter what you
talk about, basically, we all
talk about the same thing
always under all circumstances.
Whenever you have a discussion,
you're talking about this is
basically saying, I exist, I
exist, I exist.
This is what I see.
Listen to me.
Listen to my opinion.
I want your approval and I'm
willing to give some approval,
but mostly I want your approval
.
I'm here.
For what I'm saying.
Yeah.
That's human nature though.
It's what we do.
It's 99% of communication is
basically the, you know, and so
the purest form of
communication
is touch, you know.
I mean, if you want to
establish that you're here and
that, or make contact with
someone
else, the quickest way to do it
is to touch.
And that reaches in a very,
very deep level and it's scary
and, you know, whatever.
But we can't do that in this
context.
This isn't what blogging is
about.
It isn't what you know.
So you have to sort of like
choose how far down that
spectrum you want to go.
The more real human emotion and
trust, you see, that was, we
talked about this at breakfast,
right?
Yeah.
The more you get to the point
where, you know, you meet a guy
like Dave Slusher and you find
out, man, he's friendly.
Well, what does that mean?
Does that mean he's a good
person?
You can't really tell.
You don't really know yet.
What I mean is that you're
experiencing some of his
humanity and you're building a
little
bit of trust, you know, which
is good and it's rare.
Most conferences don't even
have that much of that going on
.
But yeah, so I mean, so how can
you get people to exchange more
and, you know, build those
kind of relationships in a more
direct way and at the same time
accommodate more people?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a challenge.
More people who haven't been
through one, two, and three.
And some newbies.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, right.
The ones that sort of come in
with their, you know, a precon
ceived notion of how this is
going to work, right?
And we saw them try to impose
those, you know, some of the
new people try to impose their
expectations on the structure
of the conference and, you know
, maybe at some point we won't
be able to, maybe it won't work
anymore.
Maybe FlyerCon will just become
like, you know, Mac World X or
Comdex, but it will at
least be large at that point.
Yeah.
Isn't everything that grows big
eventually destined to suck?
Yeah.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, do you think maybe...
Well, what, name it something
that became big and that doesn
't necessarily mean, well,
maybe it is only when there's a
lot of people, maybe that's
when it just becomes unmanage
able.
Well, I've never really been
all the way with something that
got big.
No, but just like, yeah, well
...
I tend to be there at the
beginning.
And I'm lucky when I get there
at the beginning and the thing
has legs and all the people
that are there are really good.
And, you know, like I've been
there, that was personal
software, that was wired, that
was the web.
These were, I mean, I was
really lucky.
I think we're there again now,
you know, it's like...
I agree.
We were there at the Blogmoral,
we're there again at the
podcasting thing, you know.
Five years from now, we're
going to look back and you're
going to look at the people
that
were at this conference and
each one of them is going to
have gone on to do something
that
you're going to say isn't it
amazing that all those people
were in the room at the same
time?
At the same time, yeah.
Right.
And it just has that feel.
I've seen enough now, you know,
I don't tend to be around like
when it becomes something
big.
I generally have moved on to
the next thing at that point.
Right, right.
But I saw it with Think New Ide
as and we started as on-ramp
with, you know, like 12 guys
and
girls with pizza boxes on the
servers, which of course is
always the romance of it.
And then we grew really quickly
and we wound up at like 400 or
500 people across seven
states and even though it was
...
What saved us, of course, was
we were divided, you know, in
chunks of 80 to 100 people in
offices.
So it didn't suck tremendously.
But as a whole, yeah, I think
it did.
And MTV sucks and, you know,
all this stuff that...
Anything that's cool and small
once you get more and more and
more people, you know what
you forget?
You forget a lot of the newbie
stuff along the way and then
people who jump on, jump in
with, as you say, with their
thoughts of what it is and what
it ought to be and you change
and morph and...
Yeah, and I think that I agree
totally and I think there's a
way to put it is that it
will get taken away from you.
In other words, you create it
and, you know, the first couple
of times you do it, you sort
of think, well, what I want to
do...
Well, the first time I did it,
I didn't want to hold on to it.
That was living video text.
After a certain point in time,
it became really clear to me
that in order to get the reward
,
I was going to have to give it
up.
I was going to have to let it
go.
Second time, user land, I was
insisting that I didn't want to
give it up and it didn't
ever...
It never grew up.
It sort of was...
What does that tell you?
Well, it tells you that
entrepreneurs' second efforts
generally don't work.
Okay, and there's a good reason
for it because...
Mine didn't.
Right.
You know what?
Right, that's right.
That's when we started hanging
out.
We were just talking about that
.
And then my theory on that is
that it's at that moment that
you try to negotiate with
the world what you want is you
want to have your cake and eat
it too.
You want to have the success
that you had in the first one,
but you don't want to work
your ass off.
You want to do it in a rational
way that only, you know, you
can only do if you have money
and you have experience.
Well, here's the problem is you
do...
I disagree.
You worked your ass off for
user land, but there's a hunger
factor that you can't determine
.
Yeah, I wrote about this today
on Scripting News.
In other words, when I...
I've noticed this...
Paul Fried helped me see this.
John Paul Fried at Harvard, who
I worked for, helped me see
this, that basically he said,
"Well, Dave, isn't everything
you do a success?"
And I said, "No, it's not.
But when I want...
When I will it to work, when I
want it to work, it will.
Because I'm that kind of person
.
I'm stubborn.
I can't.
You don't say.
I am stubborn.
And I can't.
Yes, I am.
It doesn't matter.
And the key thing is that I can
't conceive.
When I'm going to succeed, I
can't conceive of failure.
On the other hand, with user
land, I could totally conceive
of it and I was...
I accepted it.
Yeah.
I didn't...
Like you said, I didn't have
the...
It was negotiable.
Yeah, right?
It wasn't work or death or star
vation.
And the first time it was
totally non-negotiable.
I mean, basically I got to a
place where if I didn't, it was
...
It came really close to tubing
several times.
So on this one...
And I think...
Okay, so the lesson is, let it
be taken away from you.
Know that it's going to be
taken away from you one way or
another and find a way to enjoy
the success even if it does.
Yeah, well, of course, yeah.
So like, for example, in the
case of user land, it would be
unfair to say that it got
taken away from me, but it's
also true that I'm not involved
with it anymore.
But the satisfaction is that
there's blogger and there's mov
able type and there's WordPress.
And there's a fucking newsgator
and blog lines and feed demon
and feed server.
Net news wire.
Net news wire, right.
All these things came along to
sort of fill the gap that was
created by these products.
And so, you know, that says
basically you can go ahead...
We could have even sold out
user land if I wanted to.
If the opportunity presented
itself to make millions of
dollars selling it out.
Once there was a standard
format and protocol and it
could be replaced, then there
was absolutely
nothing ethically wrong with,
you know, with...
You know, the whole thing would
have an independent existence.
The problem with more and
living video text was that wasn
't true.
And the category dried up and
died after we sold that out.
So that's kind of...
That was my negotiation on user
land.
I didn't want that to happen.
I didn't want to get to a place
where the things succeeded to a
certain point and then
it came time to sell it out and
then as a result there would be
nothing left in the
scripting industry.
I'd be curious to see if based
upon...
I showed the outliner at the
podcast recession.
If people downloaded radio user
land.
I don't think so.
No?
No.
We're going to...
We're going to need to do...
I don't know what it's going to
take but first of all I don't
think it's radio user
land.
I think that we need to do a
package based on the open
source base...
A frontier.
Right.
And it needs...
Well to me that's the same...
Right.
Well but it needs to boot up in
exactly the mode you want...
Right.
Not in the weblog creation mode
but in...
More even more directed.
On a window opening up with an
outline.
And then an instruction window
somewhere immediately next to
it.
And then when you save it goes
right up to the server you want
it to be on and it's
linked in and content managed.
They get that sort of instant
result and they can immediately
see what's going on there.
That's when you're going to
start getting...
Now I think kind of an outliner
or a wave of it but you'll
start getting a trickle of
adoption when you do that
because the people that get
interested in it will have an
immediate
good sort of experience.
And yeah exactly.
And I think it's a great use.
Yeah we'll get there.
I mean...
I still have to comment on this
microphone for a second.
Oh okay.
So it's a USB microphone.
Yeah it's kind of cool looking.
Well yeah but hold on there's a
problem.
It's made by MacMice.
It was given to me for free.
But USB audio interface has a
delay.
So you're direct on the line in
with the lav mic.
So I'm hearing you...
This is like the GSM delay.
So when I'm talking there's a
half second delay because the
USB can't process the signal
fast enough.
So that's why you can see me
sticking the thing in my ear
every other five minutes.
Why are you sticking your ear?
So that I can monitor and make
sure that it's working.
It'll be sad if like it won't.
Just flip the transmitter
around so I can see the lights.
Thank you.
Do you have any lights?
I have a red light and a green
light.
The green light's flashing.
Okay yeah that's good.
Once the red light starts to
flash then you're low on
battery.
Oh it's not flashing.
Okay then you're good.
Solid.
Oh okay.
You understand what I'm saying?
I mean that would really suck
it.
Yeah you're talking and I'm not
.
Because I'm talking a lot right
.
As long as I don't have to
listen to you though it's great
.
Just the light and make sure
that when the red light, if it
's flashing.
If the red light starts to
flash then we have an hour left
so we're good.
You don't even have to look at
it.
Oh well then we don't have a
problem because we don't have
an hour in us.
Well another hour.
How big is your dick I don't
know.
Well Steve Gilmore's dropping
by here.
Hey he had the length of our,
it's additive right so like it
's the length of your dick
and the length of my life.
John Holmes step back.
Yeah he said old Steve is an
hour and a half late.
He called me.
You were out getting him a
drink.
Yeah he said hey.
I said hey.
I'm waiting for the apology you
know.
It ain't coming.
It did.
It came.
I was in a coma.
And I said you know what I said
I was waiting for the apology
and I'll accept it.
It's accepted you know.
So he was going to, he's
probably going to be here any
minute.
Hey so I got a new cell phone
today.
Yeah.
I did.
And the old one it was really
funny I was talking with my mom
.
Of course I called her first
because I knew she was worrying
you know.
She sent me an email.
She wanted to know how it went.
Well no not just that.
It's like my old cell phone
died like three days ago.
She couldn't get a hold of you
for a couple of days.
I was totally in a kind of need
of it.
I wasn't updating my blog.
My server had gone down as you
know.
Dude I was even worried
motherfucker.
Right exactly.
You know I was worried.
So it turns out that she, this
is so cute.
She left voicemail which I will
never hear because the phone is
completely kaput.
Saying basically she thought I
had either like died or was in
a hospital or something.
She just wanted the server up.
I give a shit about all that.
She left a message.
She says if you're hearing this
I'm his mother call me.
Oh really?
Oh that's so sweet.
Well you know at this late
stage in life basically it's
you know that used to really
bother me.
Being mothered that way when I
was a kid.
No but that's important stuff.
Yeah it's cool.
It's cool that she worries.
It's like and it's.
And we still have moms dude.
Yeah that's like really cool.
Well I have both.
I have both of them.
Me too.
That's gonna be cool.
Hello.
Where is here?
Yep that's Steve.
We're doing trade secrets.
Yeah.
Yeah Steve doesn't want to be a
podcaster does he?
So it's facing straight back.
And it says 2351.
Right on the back.
So this is like in New York on
WORAM when I was growing up
they had a radio show that
basically it was live and it
was in this couple's living
room in Manhattan on Park
Avenue.
They were like a rich couple.
Right.
And all these people would just
drop by their house and they
would sit around and talk
around
talking with their.
We need to find a rich friend
and we can dish out.
In New York and Park Avenue.
Well we're doing today.
We've got the chair for Steve
and of course you know he's
like a guest.
He's like you know it's like
the Beverly Hillbillies and P
etticoat Junction and oh gosh
Green Acres
and the Andy Griffiths.
What was the pink submarine?
Pink submarine.
Well these were all two shows.
All the shows.
Right.
Only pink submarine but they
were all they all knew each
other and occasionally Gomer P
yle
would show up on Petticoat Jun
ction.
That's just like podcasting.
Yeah.
I'm with Don and Drew.
Yeah.
When is Don and Drew coming
over?
You still haven't told us about
the movie by the way.
Okay.
Yeah.
Right.
So last night after Jing Jing.
How was Jing Jing by the way?
Did you like it?
It was great and actually
because when I came I was late
and because partly because I
was
stuck in this elevator and
partly because I didn't have a
ride but I knew it wouldn't
be a problem.
I knew I just went to the front
of the hotel.
There would be someone from
BloggerCon going my way and
there were five people so it
worked
out.
Yeah.
That's BloggerCon to the max.
Totally.
You know that's going to work.
You get a ride.
That's the easiest.
Maybe you get more but.
So I was hoping you would get
laid and instead of.
You didn't get laid.
You could have gotten laid.
Yeah.
I guess.
I don't think there's any
question about that.
Well you got to let people like
hold a sign up so I know that
there's a signal.
Well we should have had this
session and said who wants to
have sex with Adam.
Right.
It's sex for fun.
Nobody would have been at any
of the other sessions.
Nobody would.
No.
I don't think so.
All right.
Hi.
Nice to have you guys here
today.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
So when I came in it was like
there was really one table was
all filled up and it was like
the cool table.
Yeah.
You mean like the one I was at.
Yeah.
Totally.
And you know it was Don and
Drew and you and the other
table was behind that and there
were all the rest of the people
.
That was my initial feeling.
I'll be honest.
I was like oh okay.
All the rest of the people.
But it was great.
Yeah.
And it filled up pretty quickly
and we did an introduction
round and talked and actually
there were incredibly amazing
people at my table.
Including well I've got, I'm
spacing out, a girl from A
udible.
Oh right.
Yeah.
And some Apple engineers.
You know it was funny because I
'm like you know.
Apple engineers?
System engineers.
People like work at Apple.
Yeah.
I'm a system engineer.
By any chance work on iPods?
No.
And you know hi I'm Adam Curry.
I've spent tens and thousands
of dollars on your product.
Do they bring you any free
products?
No.
Well how tacky is that?
Well I don't think these guys
in the free product division.
You know.
That's our friend Sam Levin.
There used to be a time when
Apple like they would.
They would give stuff away.
They gave me and Mac too.
Yeah they would just show up
and they would loan you the
smaller.
Daniel Paul.
No.
Mike Boych was my guy.
Okay my name is Daniel.
And Guy Cowstock.
My bitch was the guy.
Guy Cowstock.
Yeah.
I never even met him.
Basically they would just show
up your place with loan or
hardware and you'd sign a
little
piece of paper saying that
someday you might think about
giving it back.
I did have to do that actually.
And they never, they never come
back.
Eventually the program ended.
Yeah.
Eventually.
And they asked for it back and
you gave it to them?
Yeah.
No.
Adam, Adam, time out.
You did that.
Well you're fucking it up for
everybody else.
I mean I said fuck you Apple.
Jesus.
So anyway let me get back to
Don Andrew.
You gotta be kidding.
You gave it back.
I'm an honest guy.
I signed a piece of paper.
God.
Alright.
So hold on.
Let me just make sure I'm not
exploding here.
Yeah good.
Any minute Steve Gilmore is
walking in that door.
So I hope I get to the Don
Andrew story before that.
Okay.
And so what are we going to do
after dinner and you were going
to go home.
I guess they'd already asked
you.
I did.
Oh they asked me.
Obviously they asked.
And right across the street was
a midnight showing of lollipop
girls in 3D.
Cool.
And it's a porn movie.
And I'm like you know the
opportunity to, that's kind of
like when Patricia said you
know if I didn't have sex with
David Bowie my sister would
never let me live it down.
I figured the podcast community
would never let me live it down
if I didn't go to this
movie with Don Andrew.
That's why you went?
Well I wanted to go too.
You were being put down by the
podcast community?
No I love porn.
Oh there you go.
So you had to twist your arm
basically.
Yeah really.
So they're two friends who are
really fun people.
Yeah they're all pierced in
sort of the same way.
Yeah they made it my daughter.
She's so proud of my new
friends.
Really?
Yeah she's totally into
piercing.
How does she know about them
being pierced?
She saw the Don Andrew website.
Oh and their pictures are up
there.
Yeah.
You know when I talk, because
their friend had like the big
African earlobe pierced with
a huge bullet hole like a
shotgun hole.
Wow.
Yeah that's trippy.
You just want to like stick
your finger in there.
That was the woman or the man?
The guy.
And he's like a super, he's a,
he was part of the human genome
project.
Wow.
The sequencing of the genome.
So you must be smart.
I asked him that.
He said yeah.
There you go.
He's like a smart.
Definitely like a straight
answer right?
We came back to the riot hide
first to get prepared for the
show.
What?
The riot hide here, Ricky's
hide.
You know to get prepared and
Dave Slusser showed up because
he was in the hotel.
I see on iTunes they use rendez
vous and I was looking at his
playlist on iTunes and playing
his music for the past two days
.
You know a couple of years ago.
Oh he's here at the show today.
Yeah he's gone.
I had to leave early this
morning so he didn't go with us
to the movie.
So we go to the movies, we go
back and you get, you know you
're in the, it's like an
old movie house.
My screen at home, you know the
flat screens that have an
investment in the company that
makes these flat screens.
It was, my screen at home is
almost the size of the screen.
I mean so it was not big.
I know the Z-Querys theater
right?
Yeah.
It's on Emerson street in case
you want to go there.
Right.
Across from Jing Jing.
Correct.
And hey man.
Steve Gilmore.
He's on his iPod and he's
listening to the daily source
code.
Just to bring a, bring a child.
How are we going to get a
microphone on?
Well I'm going to, what I'm
going to do is I'm going to put
this, I'm going to do like
a monitor thing.
Hey Steve, how are you doing?
Great.
Hey I see you have a map.
Did you enjoy it?
Oh you'll get a chance to like
stroke me about 18,000 times
now.
Boy.
That was the real one.
The rest of it is the fake ones
.
Come on over Steve.
I'm on a wireless mic.
How's that?
You don't even have to close
mic.
Okay.
Yeah.
So yeah I just caught up to you
.
I'm listening to you and Doug
Kay.
Oh the, yeah.
They've hated that.
I hated it?
What?
They hated you and Doug Kay.
They didn't hate it?
You said you said you hated the
way I sounded it.
Oh I didn't hate the way you
sounded it.
I didn't say I hated it.
I did.
I wouldn't regret it.
I don't have any deal.
You said you hated it.
Well guys I'll see you later.
Yeah.
You said you hated the way I
sounded.
Not what I said you sounded.
You said you didn't like to
sound like you had the same
energy as the traits.
They did source code.
Well that's true.
I didn't think, I mean, I
hardly.
You told me a story a number of
times I think.
It sounded like you were, well
look, I don't want to, you know
, I mean, the first it was
I don't get it.
It's hard.
Do you see what you did?
No the problem.
All right.
Let me just try to do this.
I mean the first one was a long
time ago and so the feeling is
gone, right?
Okay.
And basically I wanted to, I
didn't hate it because it made
me want to do the interview
with Doug so I can give him the
other side of the story and why
what you're doing is so
important, okay?
Right.
And from without.
This is all the stuff I haven't
heard yet so.
You haven't heard yet.
I just heard the first half
where, you know, it's MTV to
MTV.
Right.
All of that.
I tried to get him to tell me
this last night and he was like
, you know, belligerent about
this, you know, that I had to
go listen to the tape so I just
did.
Right.
You wanted to know the MTV
story or something else?
I was right at the point where,
you know, okay so then you went
into it and you said,
you know.
Yeah, at a certain point Donna
Drew invited me to go to the 3D
portal.
Yeah, how was that?
He's told the story of it.
Why don't you let him finish
the story.
So how was it?
What's the name of the theater?
The Aquarius Theater.
The Aquarius.
It's on Emerson Street in Palo
Alto.
So we're seeing the lights are
kind of happening and it's full
.
I mean, it's all kinds of
couples and people and it's a
total rocking or picture show
vibe.
Like, what's it be interesting?
As Guy gets up, he looks like a
UNIX system engineer.
He said that, you know what I
mean?
He compiles a red hat colonel
breakfast.
Cool.
Yeah.
And then he stands up and he's
like, hi everybody, you know, I
'm sorry that we're a little
late,
but I had a scheduling conflict
.
Okay.
And then he goes to this porn
trivia.
How long was John Holmes the
big?
I don't know how long.
Whoa, these people know they're
porn.
How long was it?
Eleven?
At twelve and a half.
Yeah.
And then we have some other
questions like who portrayed
John Holmes in the movie nights
?
Mark to Mark.
Oh, okay.
Mark Warburg.
Okay.
Stuff like that.
And then you see the pass out
these mints for free.
A little tins of mints.
I left it in the theater.
I said, we're giving these away
for free because they suck.
You can't get them open.
That's why we're giving them
away.
And literally, the lights go
down, you hear people like, and
like, and like that.
And I'll do the ping-pong.
Thousands of mints.
And so they don't get like a
Tom and Jerry thing, and you
have your glasses, you have
my glasses.
You get a Tom and Jerry cartoon
, and then it starts.
And it was, the movie was
intended to make fun of the 3D
effects.
So every opportunity people
like to stick their head out,
and you know, the leg is coming
in, and the arms are going like
that, and they're pouring water
into the camera.
And it was totally cheesy.
And Don was right at a certain
point we should have had a squ
irt gun.
Just to kind of squirt the
audience because there was
definitely a money shot.
It was just so fucking weird.
Oh, god, I don't know why.
And you can see all the actors
trying to like shoot the
audience, and they're like, oh,
who's this authority?
I'm just thinking, I'm going to
pass the screen.
Oh, now I'm getting it.
I'm going to get the mirror.
I'm just going to try to lean,
and Don goes, that's my mom!
It was a fucking trip, man.
Oh, god.
That's like having a soundtrack
.
I want to Doug Cate, like walk
behind me everywhere, and like
be my soundtrack, like
announcing
everything that I was doing,
sort of narrating my existence.
Now I just realize Don would be
even better for that, you know?
She could be explaining what
everything, you know, what's
going on around, and what kind
of underwear they're wearing,
and what they're thinking, and
whatever else they're going on
in there.
It was something else sitting
across from Don and drew at
dinner.
That's nice.
They were really nice people.
So what are they like?
Sweet.
I told them Ole and Lena jokes.
You know Ole and Lena jokes?
From my scripting.
Yeah, exactly.
They were from Wisconsin, and
they never heard of Ole and
Lena jokes, so they were all
new
for them.
And, you know, that was nice.
Their friends who were from
Minnesota, they knew about it.
From Minnesota, they knew all
about Ole and Lena jokes, so it
was nice.
And, I don't know, it was all
about vibe, I think.
It was just all about, like,
hey, how are you doing?
It's nice to see you.
We're mimicking each other's
accents, singing each other's
songs, you know?
So it's drew the sunny or, you
know, the eye-turner of that?
No.
Oh, he's the flamboyant one,
for sure.
Yeah, but he knows exactly how
to push the button.
He's the straight man, for sure
.
Yeah, but we were in line
waiting for George Burns.
Yeah, George is great, so he's
more like it, yeah.
We're waiting in line, and...
We're waiting in line.
It's the way they talk.
It is exactly the way...
There's nothing...
Right.
They didn't learn a new way of
communicating, they didn't see
it.
No, they just learned to turn
on the microphone.
And, she really liked the whole
user thing, too, she was
telling me about that.
They didn't know nothing about
the software industry, so none
of the sort of...
That was the thing I kept
hearing from people, what's
that?
None of the...
I say you think.
I think, yeah, I think.
The funny thing was, I heard
that from a lot of people, was
that they didn't understand
what the whole shtick was.
I really appreciated what you
said there, that there's a
whole history of this, and it
goes back long, long ways.
Bringing Bargher Khan to
Silicon Valley, I think it was
inevitable that we would go
through...
Well, you waited a long time to
do this.
Long enough, yeah.
I guess three...
No, this is the third Bargher
Khan, right?
What else was the long time?
I just, you know, I think it
was...
You were taking it slowly
because you were concerned
about the impact of the kinds
of things that actually went...
There was a little flare.
We never would have gotten the
thing off the ground if the
first one had been in Silicon
Valley.
It wouldn't have launched at
all.
You needed to have...
First, we needed to get the
sort of format down, this idea
that users...
We saw it, the users didn't...
Some of the users didn't even
want to be independent.
They wanted the vendors to tell
them what to do, you know?
Yes, you know, people like to
be...
They sort of split between
wanting to be free and wanting
to be controlled because it
feels safer.
Yeah, well, I think eventually
they can have what they want if
they want to be controlled, or
maybe not controlled isn't the
right word, but...
We still have a ways to go
before...
I mean, if this is going to be
a commercial market where
people sell products and, you
know, users get what they want,
we can't have a trade show, a
floor show, or...
Because, you know, what's going
to happen, and the vendors are
going to want to put people on
panels and, you know, whatever.
You know, as I said, in my
comments, I've been involved in
a bunch of these kinds of shows
in the past,
and, you know, there are good
reasons to do those kinds of
shows.
The only thing that really kind
of turned the corner for me is
that there are about 30 of them
a year, as you said.
And, you know, can't we just
have one that doesn't do it
that way?
Right.
Yeah, so...
The answer is yes. I mean, 90%
of the people in the room
either didn't understand what
the big thing was,
or felt that, you know, they
were being heard for the first
time and that felt good.
You know, so, yeah, I mean, the
answer is yes, you can.
And that kind of corresponds,
not kind of, it corresponds
directly to the feeling of
doing a podcast where you can
suddenly just,
I mean, I can say anything I
want, I mean, I can do anything
I want.
It's just like a blog, too, in
the name of the conference's
blogger con.
So it would be ridiculous to
have gone through all this
trouble to be independent
through our web blogs,
only to turn the whole thing
over to a bunch of technology
companies.
I mean, that would be... it
wouldn't work, it wouldn't
happen.
Well, it was, you know,
uncomfortable and worth every
moment.
Yeah, I like the way you put
that.
Yeah.
So, overall, were you pleased
with the conference?
Yeah, I mean, it was too short.
And at the same time, I had...
Well, I put my head down this
afternoon just to relax for a
couple of minutes.
Yeah, and...
Well, what my point is, is that
I'm saying it was too short,
yet at the same time I was
exhausted.
I mean, I heard a lot of people
say, "Well, that was, you know,
it felt like a week."
But, you know, that was a good
week.
It was very intense on an
emotional level, which I don't
think people really picked up
on until after the fact.
You know, people like...
It's so interesting, he wasn't
here for the first part.
That's exactly the only thing
that matters at the conference,
is that's because it had an
emotional dimension.
And most conferences try to st
ifle it, so the emotions go out
of the room, you know,
and they become one-on-one
conversations usually about
frustration,
is what people talk about when
they're in the hallway, when
they can't, like, be heard in
the main room, you know.
So that it was emotional, to me
, means that it worked.
Well, you know, I was sitting
next to Ross Rader.
Is that his name, last night?
Yeah, from Cadetson.
The guy just, to my right, to
your left.
Oh, okay, yes.
Yeah.
And he was talking about the
first source code that he heard
was the one where you talked
about your mother.
Yeah.
And all of a sudden, he was,
you know, he, this, he was
transported, the way I
described to him was,
"Yeah, this is not a toy. This
is real life."
Yeah.
And there was just this
enormous amount of power and
emotion and, you know,
suddenly entering this new
dimension for him.
And he just realized that this
is a whole lot more powerful
than just some sort of Wayne's
World or whatever.
Not to put Wayne's World down,
but, yeah.
Wayne's World is great.
Yes, I think that that, I think
that that was, that came across
in the conference.
It came in waves, it would, you
know, ebb and flow, of course.
But, you know, I can't wait to
hear some of the, of the
podcasts.
Podcasts, yeah.
Like the Larry Lessig session.
I really want to hear that.
Did you, did you, did you,
No, I was in the, you know, the
quote making money session.
And so I looked at the,
That was a good one. I thought
that worked pretty well.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I was amazed
that you allowed Dr. Hughes a
powerful heart attack.
He asked about it.
He asked, you know, to his
credit.
And that just says that there's
no rule that is without
exception.
I mean, basically the reason
why I don't allow power points
is because most people use
power points as crutches
because they're terrified to
stand up in front of a room and
be.
He's using a board like a
banner.
Right. But he's not like that
at all.
I mean, Doc is a professional
speaker and, and, you know, he
's not good.
He's a professional stand-up
comedian as well.
Exactly.
I mean, so the thing is, is
that, you know, the reason I
don't let people do it is
because it's just, it's
ridiculous.
Go through your fear. Be scared
. That's fine.
You're going to survive this.
It's not going to be terrible.
And you'll,
We were all wondering there
when.
You'll be a billion percent
better if you're, what, you're
wondering why.
When, you know, the,
Why the PowerPoint was
permitted. Is that what you're
doing?
No, no, no. I'm just teasing
you about whether we were all
going to survive it when you
put the mic down and we're,
Oh yeah.
That was pretty intense.
Proudling around the back of
the room there. That was pretty
intense.
Oh wait, I'm sorry.
I don't think you were there.
No, I wasn't. I've only heard
about it.
Yeah.
Well, you want to know
something, Steve?
I'll owe you personal debt of
gratitude.
Well, for many reasons, but
another one yesterday was I
couldn't leave the room until
somebody said what you said,
which is that you support where
I was at.
Okay.
At that moment, right, I could
pick up and go to the next
session and let the best happen
.
You know, let, you know, I
understand people were confused
about what had happened there
and what were the ground rules,
you know, you know, that was a
lot of confusion.
We knew that this was the
session that was going to be
the problem.
We knew it.
I mean, I spent, you know, days
talking with Scoble about this
one.
He wanted to wear an Apple t-
shirt.
I said, no, Scoble, you don't
wear an Apple t-shirt.
Why?
You know, because we don't
really want to get fired.
Yeah, the guy works at
Microsoft. He thinks it's cool
to be in Silicon Valley wearing
it.
Hey, I'm taking pictures of the
Apple's Macs coming into the
bag.
But it was supposed to happen.
What happened there was
supposed to happen, Steve.
In other words,
Is that what this, I planned it
all.
Well, I knew that that tension
was going to be in the building
.
It's like the making money
session had to be there too,
okay?
Because otherwise, like I said
in the opening, it's like,
if you don't have it there,
every session is going to be
about it.
If you didn't have the vendors
in the room without calling it
the vendor's session, right?
Then that tension would have
been in every session more or
less.
They would have been spread
around and it never would have
happened.
And then it did happen in Scott
Rosenberg's session as well.
Really? See, I wasn't there for
that.
But it was a non-bent.
Scott called on me.
The guy was starting to talk
about a side of his.
I was sitting in the back and
Scott said, Dave, what should I
do?
And literally what I said to
him was, I trust you, Scott.
And then Scott said, please,
let's move on.
I'll go to the next guy.
No problem.
I was talked about later.
I was explained to the guy that
basically this was just a
judgment call.
We don't know if we were right
or wrong.
But, you know--
I mean, it means that we
learned how to be handled on
the part of all parties.
Correct.
And now the thing is that
journalists deal with this all
the time.
This is no big deal for
journalists to figure out where
somebody's conflict of interest
lies
and ask them not to walk right
into it.
For journalists, journalists
have to be conspicuous.
There's nothing wrong with
technologists doing the same
damn thing.
There's nothing wrong with that
.
The blogosphere has permanently
erased the boundaries between
journalists and developers and
users.
That's my opinion.
So, you know, everybody has to
examine those--
We all have to be aware--
Right.
We have to disclose our
interests that are relevant to
the discussion that we're
having.
And, yeah, I mean, and even
that's not always black and
white,
it's whether you can even
disclose the conflicts of
interest.
Sometimes you can't, right?
And then you have to exercise
judgment on whether or not you
should even have an opinion
or state an opinion about this
particular subject.
If you can't disclose the
conflict of interest, then you
maybe want to just recuse
yourself
and not say anything, which is
kind of what--
You know, or on the side of
just listening is not--
was not a bad approach.
It was what the six-apart
people--
I talked with Ben and Mina
before the session and said,
you know,
"There is a rule I just want to
make sure you're aware of it,
that, you know, vendors aren't
allowed to talk about their own
products."
And they said, basically, we're
quiet people anyway, so it's
not a problem for us.
I talked with Scott Johnson at
Feester and Scott actually
thanked me for doing it.
He said, "I'm not the kind of
person who promotes my own
products in public like that,
and it always disturbs me when
my competitors do it, because
it's a line that I won't cross
."
So, you know, it's a--
I love the idea that we could
bring, you know, the same--
like you said, the same kind of
integrity that you see in
journalism,
the same sensitivity to, you
know, not disclose conflicts of
interest
and making room for the people
who are really--
have the most stake, which are
the users, to drive the process
, you know.
And on the other side, there's
something that came up in the
politics session.
Basically, you know, the
conflicts of interest on the--
- Yeah. - on the journalist's
side.
There's been a-- there's slowly
creeping into the ecosystem, if
you will,
the understanding that nobody
is free of an opinion, least of
all the journalists.
The journalists are allowed to
have an opinion.
Well, I always thought so, but
--
No, there is no.
20 years ago, that would--
If you look at the rules, if
you go to-- I should look on
Google,
I guarantee you that the-- what
's the-- what's the journalist's
organization?
Where can I look at their
charter? What a journalist is?
And it's-- I guarantee you--
Adam, that's one interesting
thing. There really isn't one.
Oh, and Holland, there is.
Not here.
Oh, really?
They have like a medical review
board for journalists.
No, there's no professional
organization.
Really?
- Yes. - Oh, that exists in
Holland.
Oh, no, not here.
Yeah, and if you can hardly sue
anyone--
That came up at the journalism
session, that there's no--
Look at those ads.
There's no certification
process, there's no--
Really?
--report of ethics, there's no
form of redress, there's no
place to take it.
I suggested this at the
journalism session.
I said, "Let's do a blind study
, okay?"
And, you know, take 20 news
articles, okay?
And before the journalist
writes the article, he puts in
a sealed envelope
what his opinion is about that
subject, okay?
Oh, yeah.
And it goes in a sealed
envelope.
Then he writes a story, and he
publishes it, and then you get
20 readers to read it.
Read the article, tell me what
you think--
[static]
--the opinion is on this
subject.
I guarantee you--
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I just moved the mic and it
went--
Well, in that case--
I'm sorry.
Anyway, I guarantee you that we
could tell you exactly what the
guy believes
just by reading the article.
Sure.
You know, so it might as well
be disclosed.
That contents of that envelope
--
Is there a--
Is there a school of journalism
?
There are lots of schools of
journalism.
Absolutely.
There's a school of journalism
at Stanford.
Right.
But, you know, the good
journalists don't go to schools
with journalists.
I'm just saying that I have
always read that a journalist's
job is to get the facts,
check the facts, and that your
own opinion is allowed.
No.
In the United States, you said
--
The old--
The only thing I agree with it
--
Right.
--is saying that's--
Right.
The old school-- we had this
came up at the DMC, Walter Me
ars, who was an old-time
reporter for the Associated
Press, was presented to us at
the blogger's breakfast as
being
the AP blogger, okay?
Right.
And so he--
Well, you know, but he's a
respectable, respectful people.
You know, I mean, it's clear
that people respect this guy.
He's an institution.
So David Weinberger asked him--
David was one of the Clutrain
authors, a blogger.
Now he's a fellow at Berkman
Center.
Asked him, who do you support
for president?
And Mears said, I can't tell
you that.
If I did, then I would be, you
know, revealing some lack of
objectivity.
And--
Well, that's--
You should disclose that.
You should or you shouldn't?
You should.
Yeah, well, because you're a
blogger.
Yeah.
You see it that way.
Yeah.
Now a journalist sees it the
other way.
You can't disclose it.
You have to report, you know,
you have to report as if you
didn't have an opinion.
But I say, and you say, and
Weinberger says, and bloggers
in general say, you need to
tell
me who you're going to vote for
.
So I know that I can subtract
that from what you've written.
It's almost a mathematical
thing.
Well, I got a comment today on
my blog.
What is your blog?
I mean, I'm like, I don't know
what you're doing.
This is--
You have a blog?
Yeah.
And what's the URL?
It's the URL.
Come on, plug it in.
I have no idea what the URL is.
What?
The base camp, if you will, is
blogs.zdinets.com.
Okay.
And it's probably slash Gilmore
with a capital G.
Don't you think you should know
the URL of your blog?
You know, I'm new to this
business.
That was the thing.
Mears did too.
People asked him, what's the
URL of your blog?
I ain't to tell you this, Steve
.
He didn't know either.
No, I know, but I don't know to
be able to spell it out on--
This is a trade secrets or a
trade secrets.
So I want to know, what is
trade secrets?
You promised on the first
broadcast of trade secrets that
you were going to--
Tell us the story.
On some future date, you were
going to explain what it really
means.
Oh.
And all of that stuff.
That's what I want to hear.
All right.
It was a bar I was going to
start in Palo Alto, actually.
It's true.
And the idea was this, is that,
first of all, when I first came
here, and I can say here,
because we're here, right, in
1979, I kept looking for the
center of Silicon Valley.
I'd go all over the place and
go, where is it?
And couldn't ever find it.
There was no--
In New York, it's Times Square.
In San Francisco, it's Union
Square, or the Fisherman's War,
or whatever.
Here, there was no place.
So I thought there needed to be
a center.
And so I thought, let's open a
bar.
And the benchmark would be,
this is where programmers would
go to get laid, which is
a little clue.
I was a programmer, and I was
trying to get laid, OK?
And I hope--
Like something has changed over
there.
Really?
My model--
He's doing old conferences to
get laid.
He used to do that.
It doesn't work anymore.
But my benchmark, I hope he
doesn't hate me for this, was
that Andy Hertzfeld would be,
like Andy Hertzfeld could go to
trade secrets.
And the image was a beautiful
woman's hand in a back pocket
of blue jeans, of Andy Hertz
feld's
blue jeans, basically.
And that's where developers and
users would go to party
together in a whole different
way.
And since everybody in Silicon
Valley was so secretive, and
basically you had to sign
the disclosures about, you know
, a cute name for the bar would
be trade secrets.
It's a double entendre.
OK, blogs.
Trade secrets.
It's about trade secrets.
blogs.zdnet.com/gilmore.
Scroll up.
I'm clicking to go to it.
So how do you edit your blog,
Steve?
He has to call his secretary.
Well, I can't edit mine.
The Potosphere.
He's claiming the Potosphere.
He's coining it.
No, I had to regrow my beard.
We've heard about that.
And then I have to--
So he has to grow the beard
back because the picture--
Here's an updated picture.
But they stretched it, like Ann
Wilson in Heart.
And look, I've got hair here.
Yeah.
Oh, damn.
Not here.
Yeah.
And I see it.
Over here.
I was doing a comparison.
And you look kind of weak here.
Yeah, that was--
You look much stronger.
I think that was about two
months after I got fired from
Info World.
OK.
So I was like--
Cool.
I was fired from some of the
best places.
Where's your RSS feed?
All of them.
I'm running out of places to
get fired from.
Where's your RSS feed?
No, that's a good question.
He doesn't have one, Adam.
Of course I do.
It just doesn't work.
What's the difference between
having one that doesn't work
and not having one?
All RSS feeds.
RSS Months.
Hey, it's a 2.0 feed.
So you can do enclosures?
Of course it is.
Can you do enclosures?
Well, I thought so.
What is the guy's name that we
were talking to last night from
who just--
the guy who wrote WordPress is
now a--
Matthew Molenway.
He's a CNET guy.
This is a CNET publication.
Cool.
Oh, he can help you with that.
So like being yet?
No, they're not using Vignette.
No, this is WordPress that they
're using.
Is that what it is?
OK.
They're using--
The WordPress developer was
there at BloggerCon yesterday.
The guy who made it.
Matthew Molenway.
Right.
I talked with him.
And I said, I just want you to
know that I got the chairman of
the Socialist Party in
Holland to blog.
And he says, yeah, he's using
WordPress.
And the whole Socialist Party
is on WordPress.
That makes sense.
Why would they use--
How many parties are there in
Holland?
Oh, God.
I mean, is this a big party in
Holland?
It's gaining a lot of traction.
It's the fastest growing party,
for sure.
And what's the reigning party?
It's-- well, we don't-- this is
the problem, I think, in
Holland.
We have-- you have to build a
coalition.
So most people voted for the
labor party.
However, the coalition, which
is-- is the Christian Democrats
and the kind of right-of-center
Democrats.
And they together have more
voters than labor parties.
So they are coalition and labor
party is now the opposition.
And this doesn't work.
Right.
And so they call it purple.
That's-- our governments are
purple.
Because it's kind of like, you
know, red and blue and--
Those of us who can't see my
eyes, they've rolled into the
back of their head.
Yeah, well, that's-- it's
fucked up.
It's fucked up.
And so Socialist Party are also
, of course, opposition.
But now they've got the
internet and the blogging thing
.
And it's making--
Are they going to jump into the
pot-a-sphere next?
I don't know about that.
I mean, I'm not doing anything
for Holland anymore.
Fuck 'em.
I'm tired.
Now, I can't contribute to that
country anymore.
We went to that last night.
Yeah, we had a couple of those
--
Proverbs.
That's Proverbs, which is--
The second one in particular, I
thought, was really--
Yeah, which is both with my
field out here.
So that means any blade of
grass that grows above the rest
gets chopped off immediately.
And, you know, since you're six
, what?
And I'm smoking grass.
You know, that's really bad.
Well, there are lots of tall
people in Holland.
Holland is one of those weird
countries, right?
Yeah.
They grow pretty tall there.
So he's not-- I mean, he's not
exceptionally tall in Holland.
He's really tall for here.
But it's clear what is meant by
the--
Yeah, no.
I first time I heard that one,
it gave me chills.
You told that story at the blog
ger's dinner we had in Amsterdam
.
Yes, and Pendinga was there,
and he was agreeing.
They all agreed with it, yeah.
They also explained to me that,
you know, there's no big deal.
People don't stop for
celebrities.
That basically it's--
It's the same thing.
If you're not acting normal,
fuck you.
Yeah.
Celebrities are hated.
I hate it, because you're a
celebrity.
And therefore, you're acting
differently.
It's gotten better over the
years, but not much.
Interesting.
But Holland was a very
successful commercial country.
It still is.
It was.
No.
It's not anymore?
Well, it used to be the Gateway
to Europe with the Rotterdam
Harbor.
That's the number one thing.
They built Skippel Airport,
which was also intended to be a
gateway to Europe.
And because, hey, look, you
know, either you choose for
your environment,
and Skippel Airport is three
yards below sea level,
reclaimed land, or you're going
to choose for commerce and
economy.
And so they've limited
everything on the airport.
The airport can't expand.
The airport, you know, okay,
that's fine.
But then realize that that's
going to Frankfurt.
And it's going, you know, it's
going--
Frankfurt is the--
Yeah, it's going, you know, so
that traffic is going away,
and you're no longer the
connecting hub.
And, you know, air traffic is,
you know,
that's very interesting
business and all that shit.
Uh-huh.
They can't expand the harbor
either.
Now Antwerp Harbor is kicking
their ass.
They built this $15 billion
railroad, which is still not
completed,
which was supposed to extend--
you come into the harbor and
then you ship everything
through Germany with trains and
water and all that.
Every way you can.
And, you know, the builders
have ripped off the government
to no end.
You know, this is all coming up
as now we have whistleblowers
and, you know,
shadow accounting showing up in
big garbage bags.
And it's, you know, what's
happening is--
and this is partly due to blogs
,
provably so, is the ships
starting to float to the top.
You know, we're finding out
that everyone's corrupt.
It's a very small country, so
it's a lot easier to see it all
happen.
So the only thing they really
have--
there's no more defense
industry.
They're barely a part of the
Joint Strike Fighter.
Not that I'm condoning that,
but, you know, it's money,
right?
That's how a country makes
money.
They're not a part of that.
They've kicked out the final
guy who actually, you know,
built submarines.
And so the only-- the sugar
industry is kept high artific
ially.
What sugar industry were they
growing there?
Sugarbeets.
Oh, okay.
So one ton of sugar in Europe--
that's not just Holland--
in Europe cost $600.
The world price-- the world
market price is $200.
So, you know, they're in a
closed little loop there.
And the only thing that I
guarantee you, Holland, is the
number one supplier of
is marijuana and ecstasy.
And every day in the paper, you
know, someone is, you know,
300 plants are being taken out
of some apartment.
That's what everyone's doing.
Everyone's growing weed.
Why are they taking the plants
out?
Well, because it's illegal.
You're not allowed to grow weed
in your house.
You're allowed to smoke it,
though.
Yeah.
I mean, this is--
It's not illegal, actually.
It is illegal.
Yes.
But this is what they call ged
ogh beleidt, which means
permission policy.
Of course, that's not the only
thing that there's permission
policy in, which is,
you know, so eventually, laws
aren't being enforced.
I want to ask Steve a question.
What's it like watching Adam
talk after having listened to
him on the podcast so much?
I mean, you're sitting right
across from him.
Well, it was a little-- like
you were telling me this at the
conference yesterday,
that there's this odd quality
of disembodiedness.
Yeah.
But that was mostly last night.
In this context, it's beginning
to appear--
I mean, I have this weird
sensation that comes from this
whole space, which is that--
Excuse me.
I tried to see because we can't
see.
I know.
That's because human pissing
all over me about--
That's me.
Let's show it with this little,
ugly guy.
A little bit of play.
Let's all do this together.
This land is your land.
This land is--
All right.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, you are.
Yeah.
I do it intentionally.
Yeah.
Well, you have a very
distinctive voice, Steve.
Yeah.
You do.
Is it a radio voice, or is it--
that's just your voice.
I did radio once.
Did you?
Yeah.
In Charleston when I was living
there, I did an AM radio
technology show.
Charleston, South Carolina.
South Carolina.
Yeah, that's where we moved.
We moved to have and bring up
our children from New York City
.
Yeah, right off.
Yeah.
Sort of a similar kind of
sensation there.
But not for the schools.
That's why we moved out here.
Good luck to us.
The schools out here are
challenged as well.
Really?
Yeah.
Well, getting all kinds of--
Getting all kinds of kids into
them as a child.
It's higher educational.
Well, there's that.
Getting into them--
Yeah.
You know.
You know, I'm not a celebrity.
I used to be like, "Hi, I'm
Adam Cray.
Sure, your kid's in."
And now it's like, "Well, hello
.
Fuck you."
So, yeah, I was on the radio
there.
But, you know, I once was
producing a record with Proctor
and Bergman, you know, two of
the fireside.
And I was in the studio and I
was trying to get Bergman to do
a line reading, which,
of course, he didn't appreciate
.
What's a line reading?
You know, I was--basically, I
forget what the line was, but I
said, "Well, I don't like
this."
And Peter says, "That's very
good, Steve, but, you know, it
's my record."
Yeah.
So, yeah, I know how to do it,
but I don't think this is about
radio voices.
No.
In fact, the thing that I
noticed with almost everybody
is, you know, when you hear
your
--when you're a kid and for the
first time you heard your voice
on tape, it's like,
"Ooh, I sound like that."
Yeah.
It wasn't the "oo" thing, but I
hear Steve, and of course it's
different than MP3.
Is it?
It's a different timbre.
Interesting.
Well, it's certainly--
What eventually happens is your
mind will recognize it and you
won't hear the difference
anymore because I've heard it,
but I had never had that
information.
And everyone sounded different.
But what you have, what you
have as well, Dave, is you have
--and I have it too.
It's just there's a certain
frequency range that's low that
microphones like to pick
up, and that is actually very
comforting for listeners.
You know, I think it's actually
a learned characteristic
because I think it goes to what
you were talking
about, which is when you first
hear yourself on a recording,
it sounds like, you know,
if you do an experiment and put
your finger in it, you can hear
the resonance and the
bunch.
All that stuff is gone.
Right.
You don't hear that on a
recording.
My voice sounds a lot better
when I'm talking than it does
to me than when I hear it
through
a speaker.
I mean, I am very nasal when I
talk.
You know, when I hear it
through the speaker, then nasal
doesn't come through for me
when
I'm listening to myself.
I can put that in for you.
No, no, no, no.
The nasal is there.
It's not here.
I don't feel like--I feel like
my voice is like not nasal at
all, but then--and I hear
it on the--
So, you know, the thing is, is
that I think as you start to do
this, you start to learn
how to kind of put that back in
.
That's something I want to say.
Oh, that's something I want to
say.
Yeah, that makes sense.
You never listen to your own
show or rarely.
No, that's not true.
That's not even--
That's like you did.
--not really.
No, I very often do.
You know, what I do is like I
record it and I then add the ID
-3 information, then I upload
it and while it's uploading it,
I listen to it.
Okay.
Right.
And after it's uploaded, I tell
them.
When you did your show about
the open sourcing of frontier,
that was a real breakthrough
for you because you weren't
concerned about--I'm not going
to psychoanalyze it.
All I'm saying is that that was
akin to Adam's show about his
mother because all of a sudden
--
You weren't doing anything with
recording at all.
No, this was about your life
and your life's work.
Yeah.
And it was compelling and--
Yeah.
And once you do that kind of
thing, it's part of your aura
from that point on.
And that's what we have to keep
reminding ourselves because
that's where we're talking
about this,
the reality radio that's really
what's coming from.
We had a breakfast this morning
where we were trying to come up
with an elevator pitch for
non-techy type people.
So what is this stuff?
The significance of podcasting.
So what we're doing with
podcasting is the radio
equivalent of what reality did
for television.
Reality radio?
Yeah.
I mean, it's a lot more.
But right now, that's what
everyone is latching onto and
is loving.
Well, it's all bootstrapping.
So whatever works to get to the
next phase is probably okay.
Better software is very
important, actually.
So what did you think about the
conference?
Well, nobody's asked me that.
That's how we started an hour
and eight minutes ago.
You sure?
You asked me that?
Well, you know what?
No one's listening anymore, so
answer it.
No, nobody's asked me point
blank that way.
Okay, I've certainly talked
about what I think of the
conference, but it's not come
quite that way.
I have mixed feelings about it,
actually.
Not the things that you might
think that, because I expected
that there would be some
conflict.
I also expected there would be
mixed quality.
And I think I don't want to
rate one session or another,
but there was mixed quality.
And it's getting bigger, and
the blogosphere is getting
bigger, so the idealism is
fading, I think.
So it's not quite so obvious
sometimes that there's an ideal
istic answer to a question, and
the mundane answer,
and sometimes we end up stuck
on the mundane answer, and I
find that very frustrating.
Because what I want is I want
to be inspired by people who
are thinking really big.
Oh, it's not.
Pretty much.
Well, all the time on a day
that you come to be inspired,
you know?
This is not every day, right?
I mean, for most people, at
most you've been to three, you
've said three of these days in
your life.
Steve, this is the first blog
ger con you've been to, so you
've had one.
Well, that's not true, but I
always pay virtually.
Right, but I think it's
different.
I think it's very different
whether you're there by the web
cast.
But I don't know, because I've
never done the webcast for a
blogger con myself.
I haven't done it.
I mean, I had a sort of maybe a
2.5 experience out of three in
absorbing the first one,
because I was sort of vacill
ated between the insanely
variant audio feed, the
official audio feed,
and Kevin Marks with his little
ISAC camera.
I think we should mind not that
this time.
I think we actually had a web
cast.
Oh, was there a video?
Yeah.
No, not video.
No, we don't do audio.
There was also a video webcast.
I think Kevin Marks' stuff was
going out as well.
Kevin wasn't there?
Kevin Marks wasn't there.
No, he was in the home.
I think Jenny Vaska had a
camera at one point.
Well, see, that's the dimension
of the blogger con that I never
get, okay?
I don't get the IRC dimension.
Well, anyway, it's not about me
.
I was asking you.
Right, and so let's see.
Right, so, but you know, I don
't think that's that different
from the others.
I mean, there were, there's
always, it's not as inspiring
as I would like it to be, but,
you know, but then again, you
know, you find your inspiration
in whatever you are inspired
by, right?
The fact that all these people
come together in itself is
pretty cool.
I think the format, I'm looking
, going to look for sort of some
new things we can try
with format.
I don't know what they are yet,
but I don't like the
microphones.
Yeah, I'm going to push back on
you about that because, you
know, while we were doing
it, and by that I mean,
particularly when your session,
and I was participating, we
make the point, because you've
already said this on the
microphone that you didn't want
the microphones again.
No, I didn't say that, right?
I wasn't totally happy with
them, okay?
Okay, all I'm saying is that,
you know, that was, you called
this, you know, kind of, it
was a wood stock for the pod
osphere, you know?
Right, and that was the...
And the way that that works, to
give people in that room on an
equal basis the ability
to be able to put their voice
out into the room and over the
...
It was really more for the
podcast.
That's a really good thing.
But then we can do a lot better
than that.
Absolutely.
I think we ought to get
together and talk about that,
okay?
Yeah.
I'll give you an example.
We've got a room here right now
, and we're not waiting for
somebody to come with a
microphone,
right?
Right, there's no latency here.
Right, and so...
Except on my headphone.
I want to tell you another, I
want to tell you a little story
.
I know we're going to go
probably way, way over here,
right?
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
But this doesn't have to fit on
the CD, right?
Anyway.
Hot boys.
Knock that off.
Open up.
Hot boys.
I'll make you a dick.
I really, really spent a lot of
time with Doug Kay at this
conference.
I really, really got to like
Doug, you know, and that was
nice.
So I can make, I feel like I
can make a little fun of him
now.
But anyway, I went to a non-dis
closed event at Microsoft, which
you were aware of, you
know, a few weeks ago.
And I'm not going to say what
the event was about or anything
, but I want to tell you
a little anecdote.
One point during the event,
there were 20 people in the
room screaming at the Microsoft
people,
okay?
And it freaked them out, of
course.
I mean, but the screaming wasn
't like, "You stupid idiots."
The screaming was, "This is
what we want you to do, and
this is why we want you to do
it.
I want you to do this, and I
want you to do this."
You could discern from all the
different threads that were
going on at the same time
different ideas.
In other words, it wasn't just
that people were screaming.
They were saying things.
They were excited.
They finally had figured it out
.
It was great.
And so one of the guys from
Microsoft gets up.
This is not a blogger.
None of the Microsoft people,
except for Skilville, were blog
gers, okay?
So that means that there were
30 Microsoft people in the room
.
Only Skilville was a blogger,
and he pretty much kept quiet.
He said, "No, no, no.
Everybody talked one at a time
."
And I screamed, and I said, "We
're bloggers.
We're just, this is the way it
works.
We're going to scream, and you
've got to fucking listen to
what we're saying."
Because it had been so polite
up to that point, and they just
simply weren't hearing what
we were saying.
So at that point, at least we
could hear what we were saying.
And then it was like a real, I
was telling Adam before about
Stacey Kramer, about how
she had a real moment when she
totally objected to something I
said, and she said it in a
very sort of opinionated way,
and she immediately said, "Oh,
I'm sorry."
And I said, "No, no, no.
There's no problem.
A little humanity came out.
We like that.
That's good."
You notice what you're saying
about the emotions, right?
I mean, people are being real
when the emotions come out.
So to me, it's also some good
ideas that don't come out under
controlled service.
That's what I'm saying, and
that the blogosphere is not
about waiting for the
microphone to
show up.
It's almost the opposite of
that.
It's this cacophony, this mess
of ideas just thrown out, and
God, I hope somebody can hear
this.
There's a lot of that to blog
ging, right?
And when you pretend that we're
so orderly and we can wait for
the microphone, then you
start getting the speech effect
.
And I heard that a lot of times
.
It's like, "Well, wait, I've
got five things to say."
But if you were like that, you
wouldn't have five things to
say because you wouldn't have
a moment to prepare.
But isn't that just a technical
problem?
That's what I'm trying to
figure out.
That's only a technical problem
.
Well, and it may be that the
next barricade that we do--
Everyone comes mic'd.
--may be, but I have a
different idea, okay?
Which is that we vary the
format radically, and we don't
lessen the commitment to this
format.
We just do one interim that is
a completely different format,
okay?
And maybe it's podcast or blog
athon or something like that.
And what you do is you rent a
small room, a conference room
somewhere, okay?
A small enough room so that mic
'ing it up isn't a problem,
right?
And the acoustics are good, and
you don't try to do even a
whole day, okay?
You try to do something like
what we're doing right now, and
you try to make something
coherent,
come out of 10 people in a room
focused on a specific thing.
It doesn't matter what it is.
A specific issue, a problem
that needs to be solved,
something like that.
And you try to come out of it
with the kind of focus that the
blogosphere is capable of
doing, and try to see if you
can't make that happen in a
real-time audio way.
And I think that if you can,
what comes out the other end is
some incredible programming.
I mean, just, you'll watch the
problem be solved.
And that's, I think in solving
that problem, you end up
providing the template for what
John Stewart was looking for
from CNN Crossfire.
You know, it's kind of, you
know, it's jazz is what it is.
It's, you know, it's people,
you know.
It's improv.
There's a guy who used to, he
was the producer of Al Green.
I forgot his name for a second,
but he has this recording
technique where he folds back
all the monitor feed into the
drum kit and into the room.
So you basically sit in a
circle.
What's the drum kit?
The drums?
The drums.
He takes the monitor feed.
He takes, you know, the speaker
inside the drums.
He puts the speakers inside.
He just, he feeds back into.
Really Mitchell?
Exactly.
And, thank you Google.
No, fuck you.
I knew that.
Hey, we're slowly finding where
the knowledge comes from.
The power of pure intellect.
I mean, you know, at the
technical level, you know, the
thing that really works is that
the overtones coming from
acoustic guitars and vocals
being pushed into the cymbals
create overtones which are unm
atched.
You know, it's a sound that is
instantly recognizable and it's
one of the reasons that the,
you
know, the backbeat in, you know
, Willie Mitchell's and Al, the
guy who died who was the
drummer
in those days.
It's just, it has this kind of
feel that you cannot get from
overdubbing from, you know,
essentially having to record,
you know, recording once, one
at a time and overdubbing.
Oh, okay.
In other words, you don't hear
what the other, you're not
listening to what the other
person
is playing and interacting with
that person and vice versa.
And that kind of thing.
That would be Kenny Butchery?
No.
Okay, now you're kind of.
Al Jackson?
Al Jackson.
He was the, the drummer in the
original.
Booker T in the MGs.
Very good.
So what I'm saying is, is that,
you know, the only pushback I
'll give you is the ten
people, you know, who are the
ten people?
There's going to be, there's
not going to be 390 people.
No, no, you would do it
deliberately so it wasn't an
analyst.
That wouldn't be the point at
all.
And there are ways, by the way,
we, you know, we found ways to,
to dampen the A-list, right?
That was the dinners last night
, the choice of the discussion
leaders.
They weren't chosen for the
celebrity.
I think that not one blogger
knew who Craig Klein was.
But Craig is an incredible
discussion leader.
He has so much experience with
it.
And he has.
Which one was this?
This was the mobile blogging
one.
But Craig, the thing about
Craig is, is that, you know, a
good discussion leader might
very
well be somebody with a
personality that you can hardly
even find, you know?
The point is, is that he's
supposed to make the discussion
happen, right?
Not impress you with his
personality, right?
So Craig, you know, we tried
different things, you know, was
less a good discussion leader?
I think he was.
And I don't want to, you know,
let's go straight there.
That one, everybody seems to
have thought, I mean, there was
a controversy there.
I didn't catch it.
I wasn't there for that.
Is it a con session?
Yeah.
Had I been there, I would have
totally agreed with what the
guy said.
I wouldn't characterize it as a
controversy.
It was a fairly mellow session.
That's the problem.
It shouldn't have been a mellow
session.
It should have been one of
these.
People were exhausted from, you
know, this.
But we did the session after
that, the making money session.
And with a little bit of
stimulus, we were able to get
that session to really rock,
okay?
To the point where it wasn't
just like, let's not talk about
the nickels and thimes.
They're on this and making
money, right?
Well, when we're talking about
making money, why should we
talk about nickels and thimes
when there are millions of
dollars on the table?
You know, picking up nickels
and thimes on the floor is not
really the, you know.
But yeah, a lot of people like
to talk about the nickels and
thimes and think big, you
know.
And I think it's not people to
think big.
I know it's not.
Not easy.
I know.
And that's the thing.
You saw my friend Ron Bloom.
That's really struggling.
He's a big ass thinker.
Old school.
But right.
And that's the point of
bringing people together and
into one building for 12 hours
and saying
this one day, we're going to
stretch those minds and we're
going to see if we can't get
fired.
You know, there are some people
, by the way, who can think big
who came like Keith Teer,
okay?
Keith is a big thinker.
He's got a big mind, but he
doesn't know that much about
blogs.
So he came.
He got his one day education on
blogs.
And all of a sudden, his brain
is exploding with ideas.
But it takes people.
But this is when you ramp up.
Even if you're a newbie.
You got to make him doesn't
need that much.
No, no, no.
But there are a lot of people
there.
Absolutely.
So what you do is you open the
door for anybody of any type.
Be surprised.
Nobody is an architecture of
human nature.
I mean, or an architect of
human nature.
You can't, you don't live long
enough to learn how to do that,
right?
If we lived 500 years, you
might learn how to architect
human nature and use it in a
more
effective way.
None of us do so we don't learn
how to do that.
What you do is you open the
door up and you try to throw
some big ideas into the room.
And then you sort of let
whatever happens.
So you may get one person who
knows a lot about the blog
osphere but never thought about
it this way.
Or another person who knows
nothing about the blogosphere
but is always thinking expans
ively.
So I thought, what we would do
that session, I thought we
would put doc surals.
Now doc totally gets it.
I think doc is sometimes really
frustrated that he can't get
other people to get it.
So the Clutrain Manifesto to me
, when I first even heard the
idea and read the manifesto
itself, you know, we the people
of the earth, that thing, okay.
I mean, I'm like the third sign
atory on the damn thing.
And I said basically, guys, you
gotta know, I believe in this
shit, right?
I mean, to me it was a total
fucking no brainer, you know,
that you want to turn the
funnel
upside down.
You want to let the stuff, the
good stuff pour in any which
way it wants to come, you
know, and you don't worry about
it.
You don't think in terms of a
top of the mountain and great
ideas flowing down and out,
because
that's the old model, right?
The new model is I don't care
where the ideas come from.
They can come from anywhere,
you know?
And that's why be picky.
If you could ask your question
there.
Have you noticed in your life,
both you're older than I am,
that as you get older and
wiser as to what the world is.
I find that almost every
process, almost everything that
I held to believe to be true,
it all
has to be turned upside down.
What?
Wait, wait, wait.
Okay.
Everything you believe to be
true.
Any process, I look at it and
say if I did, if I did turn it
around.
Everything you believe to be
true, Adam, was true.
Okay?
You may have had some small
things that were misconceptions
that made me go like, I'm the
center of the universe, okay?
Life teaches you that you're
not the center of the universe
and you aren't going to live
forever, okay?
But you, everything you
believed was true.
It all was true.
You don't lose that.
That's not what life teaches
you.
Life doesn't teach you you were
wrong.
I think you misunderstand what
you're saying.
Okay, all right, fair enough.
I'm going to the cone concept.
Okay.
Cone concept is, you know, I've
always looked at it exactly
right.
You know, it comes from the top
and it goes down.
That's the way most things seem
to work, but they don't.
It seems like if you turn it
around, it works much, much
better.
Right.
But I found that in technical
processes, it's as well as like
users and developers.
You have to reverse the process
.
Tell you what?
Yes, you do.
But the thing is you always
have to reverse it whichever
way you have it turned.
The creative mind can conceive
of everything working
differently.
And that's where...
Okay, maybe that's what...
And it's like, right, and it's
like, so if it's structured
this way, you may find some
new territory if you flip it
around and structure it the
other way.
So you are creative thinker
Adam.
That's my creativity growing.
Does that grow older?
I don't know if your creativity
grows as you grow older.
I don't know about that.
I created some, personally
created some really good shit
when I was really young.
I think that in some ways my...
But a classic statement is that
you have this burst of horse
and the walsy and creativity
when you're young and then you
sort of settle into...
That's one way of...
I'm not sure that that's...
You have a different motive
when you're younger.
Young people, young overachie
ver type people, when they're in
their 20, especially males,
have to prove their...
Right.
It's like you have to win
something.
You have to fight a war and you
have to win.
And I had that, I felt really
strongly, and I see it in a lot
of other men.
I don't see it so much in women
.
I don't understand women to
that extent that what's driving
them at that age, it's really
hard to know.
You can only go by...
You need to listen to the super
smart or sex radio show.
Okay.
That will teach you a lot about
what drives you.
I'm always fascinated with
women.
That's a podcast you've got to
check out.
Okay.
I mean, that's the thing about
us men, we don't understand
them, but we're endlessly
fascinated.
I learned a lot.
Right.
Good.
Let's say you know.
I learned a hell of a lot.
All right.
Well, they're willing to teach
us, that's good.
That's good.
We like that.
Precisely.
It's just different.
I think that as you grow older,
you deepen.
And this is cliched, right?
You deepen and you also have a
better sense of humor and you
're not so worried about
things that you were worried
about when you were younger.
You relax.
It's a paradoxical.
As you get older, you're
getting closer to death, right?
It would seem like you'd be
more of a rush than you were
when you were younger, but it
doesn't work that way.
No, there's this, when you
reach a certain age, there's
this...
If you reach a certain age,
there's this kind of glow.
A calm that comes from the fact
that, "Holy shit, I actually...
I'm not so hormone-driven.
I'm not so driven by what Dave
was just talking about."
Or there's a calm and a
confidence that comes from
experience.
At a younger age, I never could
have handled that last session.
That allows you to be able to
appreciate life a little bit
better.
At a younger age, I never ever
in a million years could have
handled that last session.
There's that guy standing up
there and he's throwing
something at my...
He wants something from me that
isn't...
He's not being direct about
what he's saying.
My imagination would run wild.
This is something I noticed
when I was in my late 30s,
early 40s.
The thought that would form in
my head was, "Oh, he's acting
just like my father."
Yeah, it would happen.
Literally, that thought would
form in my head.
And then, the next thought is,
"I respond to my father."
That's not necessarily always
fun.
Oh, God, no.
It's terribly not fun because
it's not my father and he doesn
't know what he's supposed
to do next.
He probably doesn't do it.
He's probably talking to his
father and he's doing it.
What you end up with is two
dead people, basically.
At that moment...
Here, I hear you.
I can't wait to hear that part
of it.
It's a dead people part.
Two dead people part.
So, what you do in a situation
like that is you take five deep
breaths while the guy's
talking and then you check out
the room and you see, "Okay,
this is where I am.
There's a window there.
There are 30...
There are actually 200 people
sitting all around this place.
I'm going to look at their
faces and see how they're doing
."
And then I'm going to listen at
the same time to every word
this guy says and I'm going
to make sure that I don't
respond to anything I don't
have to.
And that's the thing that maybe
you wouldn't have done when you
were younger is force yourself
to listen.
That's very hard.
That's the important thing.
That's what this guy really
wants.
He wants that more than he
wants to fight, although he
really wants to fight.
I mean, think about what he was
doing.
Because the risk for him is
that he's going to destroy this
conference.
It's going to turn into bedlam,
right?
We're all going to go there
where he is, right?
And it's all going to get
destroyed.
He doesn't really want that.
What he wants is he wants
somebody to understand that he
's hurting, that this hurt his
feelings
and that he didn't like it.
So what you got to do is
without recognizing that there
are so many other people there,
I don't want to bring it into
that dimension, but I want to
validate it.
I want to say I'm not going to
object to anything that you
said, except for the fact that
you
say I attacked you because that
's just not realistic.
I was standing here 40 feet
away from where you are.
There was no attack going on
here.
And I could have made a mistake
, too.
I hope I said that.
I was thinking that I need to
say that I could have been
mistaken.
I don't insist that I had to be
right.
I don't know.
We'll not.
No doubt that people will
listen to those words very
carefully.
I think you might have,
actually.
I don't doubt that from his
point of view, you see, you can
put everything on that and
say that there were many points
of view of that event.
Lots of people saw all kinds of
different things there.
I know what I was thinking was
I was expecting this to happen
and this is not a surprise and
it's going to fall to me to do
it.
This was something I was trying
to find somebody else.
I knew it was going to happen
and I talked to a couple of
other people and I said, "This
is about to happen.
Will you stay in the room and
will you stop it when it
happens?"
Nobody wanted to deal with it.
So they didn't really
understand, even understand
what I was saying.
So I stayed and I waited and it
happened.
All right, so we're one hour
and 30 minutes.
It's ridiculous isn't it?
Why don't we wrap it up with
some podcasting clutch?
What's that?
Let's talk about podcasting.
I thought we were going to sing
about this land is your land.
You're already dragged.
You know what?
Harvard.
Harvard I heard from Professor
Lassen.
What?
Harvard has a license for
people singing.
So Stanford has a license for
people singing at school.
I don't have that license here.
Oh, excuse me.
You can't sing.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Well, there must be something I
can sing.
All right, anyway, podcast.
What should we do?
Well, I can't wait to hear the
-- I don't know, so it may not
have been addressed, but there
are a number of issues that
came up about how we deal with
this intersection with the
RIA that's coming.
I mean, the --
What did Ron Bloom say?
What he said?
About the intersections coming
up with the RIA.
He had a very --
He said --
I wish you were here because it
was very -- you know who Ron
Bloom is?
Yeah, I met him.
Exactly.
What way should we tell them?
He's my former partner.
I think new ideas, company we
took public.
I met him early on in the
company, and he really did the
whole taking as public.
I kind of told him on those co-
tails.
Yeah, I heard -- I --
You heard it.
You're one of the other people
who --
We're not the only --
I'm looking at you.
And I'm telling you this.
I'll shut up.
I'm a light.
Okay.
He needs to foil.
He needs to crutch.
And --
He's so used to doing these
things.
Why do you need to look at him
when you're talking to him?
Because it comes across in the
show.
It does.
But you see, we do all these
things without -- I mean, you
're --
Were you ever smiled at anybody
when you were talking on the
phone with them?
All the time.
You're probably right about
that, yeah.
Okay, so --
I'm getting tired.
He's a --
I'll shut up now.
He's a musician, really.
He wrote some hits on.
Yeah, he -- he was like -- and
he admitted this.
He never really -- he made
money and he had studio and had
lots of -- did lots of session
or, of course, lots of stay-al
ike.
What he didn't mention is that
he lived with Princess
Stephanie of Monaco.
Wow.
Yeah, that's --
Was she a hottie?
Fucking A.
Really?
Okay.
In between bodyguards.
No, way before that.
He produced a record, which is
how it always happens, isn't it
?
Hey, baby.
Over here.
I got you, baby.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, don't get me in
jail.
Oh, there you go.
So he -- but what he knows from
an artist standpoint a lot
about getting paid or not
getting paid.
This is an example.
He's done a lot of soundtracks
probably for that movie we saw
last night with Don Drew.
And if it's played in American
theater, he gets nothing.
He doesn't get paid for that
zero.
If it's played in a German
theater, he gets paid.
So, you know, this is weird.
And he said everything should
be labeled fair use.
What -- based on that, the idea
was look at ringtones.
Billions of dollars being made
on ringtones.
It's all back catalog stuff.
It's all real simple.
The DRM works and people are
making tons of money on it.
He says, "Well, that's three
levels.
It's real simple.
There's fair use, which is just
using it myself.
There's sharing it with my
friends, which would be 20
bucks.
And then there's professional
use.
It would be podcast.
It would be 5,000.
Whatever.
Make it simple.
Boom, boom, boom.
And everyone wants to
participate.
And his approach was don't try
to go to the lawyers to get
this done.
Go to the CEOs of the music
business and show them the
money.
I think it's impossible to --
I sort of agree with that.
I wish you were here to explain
.
Yeah, yeah, this is the guy who
could go to the CEO.
Yeah, right.
And speak the language.
I hear that.
And I think that that is the
right approach, is to go and
talk to them.
The thing, though, is I think
that there's an opportunity to
create enough content.
Totally.
To be able to go to them and
say, "Okay, you want some of
this?"
Yeah.
That's what he's saying.
Yeah, that makes sense.
He's saying, except without
being confrontational about it,
being sales-y about it, saying,
"Here's a distribution system.
We want to plug you into it."
Right.
We need to create an archive, a
backlog, a catalog of this.
A lot of this.
So that we can have something
to trade.
You can't stop that catalog
from being created now.
The catalog is already there.
It's just we don't know how to
--
Hey, I have another idea for
format, okay?
Another format for a conference
, all right?
What you do is you rent a hotel
like this, okay?
Maybe not here -- this is
pretty close, actually, to what
I would like, except it's not
like near a beach or something,
a place where you can go for h
ikes or whatever.
And you rent out enough rooms
in it so that you could have
like 25 different people who do
podcasts in the hotel
at the same time for a week,
okay?
All right?
And you cross pollinate.
You sit down, you do exactly
what we're doing right now.
Yeah.
You do the -- you find out what
the combinations do.
You do the combinatorics.
And you also --
Maybe even do a round robin.
Maybe even play some games, too
.
You also have that big room
sometimes.
Whenever you want it, actually.
For the recording studio.
Right, whenever you want it.
That's what that was.
And it's a 24 by 7 thing.
It's going on all day, all
night, you know, whatever, you
know, and it's --
You have a house band.
Yeah, you need the whole line
of yards.
We've been talking about this
for a long time.
How would you --
How would you guys --
How would you guys will be here
?
They will be here.
They will fucking be here.
And you have to do a live
recording with them before you
leave town.
Not this time.
Yeah, oh yeah.
And I will.
They're going to come to the
castle.
I'll have them do a little mini
concert.
Curt Castle.
I'm a big fan of the --
I've been very happy when you
played the Power of Puritan to
the beginning of your session.
It was like a wave.
It was nice to hear.
Oh, yeah!
The show is starting!
Exactly.
Yeah, I was like, oh, this is a
show.
Yeah.
It was --
Notice I didn't mention that
every source code.
No, you didn't have to.
We all got in that mood right
there.
It's cool.
It's like Cavalod's dogs were
crying out loud.
He started --
Boy!
Say that again.
Boy!
You're going to be 50 years.
You're going to be --
Okay, let's have another hand
for --
Come on, give us another boy!
Boy!
I'm already new there.
What are you talking about?
That's when I died.
There's no song.
It's just boy.
I was just giving you another
50.
I was just saying --
50 is good.
Yeah, I mean, 98.
You can do it.
Yeah.
You'll have great, great, great
grandchildren by then.
Oh, okay.
I think you're not Jewish, you
know how to say that.
What do you mean I'm not
allowed to do that?
Did you guys want to go to
dinner?
Yeah.
I had thought maybe we'd go for
Fuki Sushi.
You like that?
Yeah, I love that.
It's right down the street.
It's a really good sushi place.
Yeah, that used to be --
I don't know if it is anymore.
It used to be Steve Jobs'
favorite sushi place.
Yeah, you could go in there.
You'd see him there.
Yeah.
Let's go and see him there.
Yeah, maybe he's there.
Can we ask for an autograph?
Maybe we can?
Maybe?
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
Maybe we can ask for an
autograph.
♪ Your speakers ♪
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