WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.480 [Music] 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:15.480 Roger! 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:19.060 Hey Dave Weiner, I'm in the 00:00:19.060 --> 00:00:20.760 United Kingdom. 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:22.240 I hear that you're in the 00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:23.280 United Kingdom. 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:24.720 I hear that you're in the 00:00:24.720 --> 00:00:26.480 United Kingdom of Seattle. 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:31.480 It's raining here Adam. 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:34.480 Hey everybody, hey everybody. 00:00:34.480 --> 00:00:35.300 And while I was waiting for you 00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:36.880 to call, I recorded a morning 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:38.090 coffee note, if you could 00:00:38.090 --> 00:00:38.480 believe that shit. 00:00:38.480 --> 00:00:39.480 Are you kidding me? 00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:40.900 In the 15 minutes it took for 00:00:40.900 --> 00:00:42.050 me to get from Starbucks to 00:00:42.050 --> 00:00:42.480 home? 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:44.460 Well I got news for you, it 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:46.480 wasn't 15 minutes. 00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:48.880 It was actually too funny 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:50.920 because I put the recording 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:52.480 thing on. 00:00:52.480 --> 00:00:54.250 I was going to record while I 00:00:54.250 --> 00:00:56.170 was waiting for Adam to call me 00:00:56.170 --> 00:00:56.480 . 00:00:56.480 --> 00:00:58.940 And then it started getting 00:00:58.940 --> 00:01:00.480 interesting. 00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:01.480 Oh boy. 00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:03.210 I'm sorry if I do say so myself 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:03.480 . 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:04.740 Well let me just tell everyone 00:01:04.740 --> 00:01:06.050 that you're listening to Trade 00:01:06.050 --> 00:01:06.480 Secrets. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.730 It's been, I think, half of the 00:01:08.730 --> 00:01:10.920 lifetime of podcasting since we 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:12.480 've done one of these days. 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.480 It's been a while man. 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:15.550 It's been a few weeks to the UK 00:01:15.550 --> 00:01:16.480 at least. 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:17.920 I haven't done one shit, haven 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.370 't done one even the last couple 00:01:19.370 --> 00:01:20.780 of weeks at the castle because 00:01:20.780 --> 00:01:23.480 you were on the road and damn. 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:25.480 Yeah, well you know, whatever. 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:27.020 I think maybe the last one we 00:01:27.020 --> 00:01:28.480 did was at BlagerCon. 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.480 BlagerCon, right? 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:31.090 That was the really long one 00:01:31.090 --> 00:01:32.480 with Steve Gilmore? 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:33.480 Yeah. 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.050 Those were the days my friend, 00:01:36.050 --> 00:01:38.790 my best friend, we could dance 00:01:38.790 --> 00:01:40.480 forever and ever. 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:41.980 So I see you haven't posted the 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:43.480 morning coffee notes yet. 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:44.480 You've only recorded it? 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:45.480 I actually just did. 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:46.480 Oh okay. 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:48.210 While I was singing the song I 00:01:48.210 --> 00:01:49.480 hit the save button. 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:51.480 Ah yeah, beautiful. 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.480 So how do you do server man? 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:56.370 Yeah I know you have a really 00:01:56.370 --> 00:01:57.480 honking one. 00:01:57.480 --> 00:01:59.120 Yeah and so let's see, here's 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:00.490 what I said in the morning 00:02:00.490 --> 00:02:01.480 coffee notes. 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:02.480 Let me summarize, alright? 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:03.480 Okay. 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:04.110 First of all, let's talk about 00:02:04.110 --> 00:02:04.480 everything. 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:05.480 Fuck it, let's not like… 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:06.480 Really let's go all out? 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:07.480 I'm all for that dude. 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:08.480 I'm so for that. 00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:09.590 Well, you know let me just give 00:02:09.590 --> 00:02:10.350 people a little bit of 00:02:10.350 --> 00:02:11.480 background on that okay? 00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:13.010 So yesterday you and I were 00:02:13.010 --> 00:02:14.700 talking and then you said, I 00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:16.480 said to you, you know, like you 00:02:16.480 --> 00:02:16.480 're 00:02:16.480 --> 00:02:18.020 so good at laying these 00:02:18.020 --> 00:02:20.460 foundations in, you know, daily 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:21.480 source code. 00:02:21.480 --> 00:02:22.950 It's like, you know, you hear 00:02:22.950 --> 00:02:24.480 about things 20 times. 00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:25.590 You surround it from all 00:02:25.590 --> 00:02:26.480 different angles. 00:02:26.480 --> 00:02:27.720 So why can't we do that with 00:02:27.720 --> 00:02:29.480 this brainstorming we're doing? 00:02:29.480 --> 00:02:31.060 And you said, "Well, some lies, 00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:32.420 you know, I can't really, it 00:02:32.420 --> 00:02:33.480 doesn't really work." 00:02:33.480 --> 00:02:35.210 And I said it's like the same 00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:37.220 way for me too with, you know, 00:02:37.220 --> 00:02:38.480 scripting news. 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.400 I really don't like plotting 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.480 things in private. 00:02:41.480 --> 00:02:43.190 Those of you that work well for 00:02:43.190 --> 00:02:43.480 me. 00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:44.480 It's very difficult. 00:02:44.480 --> 00:02:45.020 For me, it's totally 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:45.480 association. 00:02:45.480 --> 00:02:46.990 You know, when I'm doing, when 00:02:46.990 --> 00:02:48.310 I'm doing, it was funny you 00:02:48.310 --> 00:02:49.480 asked me yesterday, was that 00:02:49.480 --> 00:02:50.480 really true? 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:51.480 Was it T? 00:02:51.480 --> 00:02:52.480 Of course it was true. 00:02:52.480 --> 00:02:53.610 Everything that happens on the 00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:54.480 source code is true. 00:02:54.480 --> 00:02:55.480 It's, or is real. 00:02:55.480 --> 00:02:56.650 Let's put it that way, I don't 00:02:56.650 --> 00:02:57.480 know if it's true. 00:02:57.480 --> 00:02:58.480 It's real. 00:02:58.480 --> 00:03:00.440 But, you know, when I'm holding 00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:02.320 stuff back, it's like, for me 00:03:02.320 --> 00:03:04.480 it's a broadcast of thing. 00:03:04.480 --> 00:03:05.590 I'm sure for you, it's a 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:06.960 broadcast of thing for you as 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.480 well. 00:03:07.480 --> 00:03:08.980 It's like you park this little, 00:03:08.980 --> 00:03:10.330 that's the big problem Howard 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:11.780 Stern has, you know, and 00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:13.320 a lot of real professional 00:03:13.320 --> 00:03:15.060 quote unquote broadcasters is 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:16.600 you have to park all these 00:03:16.600 --> 00:03:17.720 words and things 00:03:17.720 --> 00:03:19.320 away in a corner so they don't 00:03:19.320 --> 00:03:20.980 slip out like nipple, tits, 00:03:20.980 --> 00:03:22.480 cock shit, puss, piss, 00:03:22.480 --> 00:03:23.480 motherfucker, 00:03:23.480 --> 00:03:27.480 you know, all that stuff. 00:03:27.480 --> 00:03:28.520 And including, you know, the 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:29.560 stuff that we've been just kind 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:30.480 of working on together. 00:03:30.480 --> 00:03:31.480 And I find it incredibly hard. 00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:34.220 With me, it's like the snipples 00:03:34.220 --> 00:03:36.520 and sneezes and honks and all 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.480 that shit like that. 00:03:38.480 --> 00:03:40.130 People were giving me shit 00:03:40.130 --> 00:03:41.830 because I was doing that all 00:03:41.830 --> 00:03:42.480 along. 00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:43.480 I don't mind that. 00:03:43.480 --> 00:03:45.480 Well, what can I get to do? 00:03:45.480 --> 00:03:47.160 Like, you know, becoming an 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:48.480 android, I guess. 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:50.640 Yes, you can become a real pod 00:03:50.640 --> 00:03:51.480 caster. 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:52.480 Anyway, that was part one. 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:53.730 So I said, let's talk about 00:03:53.730 --> 00:03:54.480 everything. 00:03:54.480 --> 00:03:56.230 And then I drifted into sort of 00:03:56.230 --> 00:03:58.070 like, I don't know how exactly 00:03:58.070 --> 00:03:59.480 I got to this, but this idea 00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:01.320 that, you know, well, we do 00:04:01.320 --> 00:04:02.480 need the truth. 00:04:02.480 --> 00:04:03.480 You mentioned this too. 00:04:03.480 --> 00:04:04.480 I talked about that too. 00:04:04.480 --> 00:04:06.310 And I saw yet two more articles 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:08.000 today that said Adam Curry who 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:09.480 invented podcasts. 00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:10.480 Yeah, I hate that. 00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:12.360 Adam, when we, you know, I love 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:14.160 you Adam and we've talked about 00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:15.480 this at Infanitum. 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:17.040 It's not a problem I have with 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:17.480 you. 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:18.950 It's a problem I have with the 00:04:18.950 --> 00:04:19.480 world. 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:20.680 And, you know, I know I'm going 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:21.480 to lose this one. 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:22.430 So, I mean, when you have a 00:04:22.430 --> 00:04:23.540 problem with the world, you can 00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:25.480 sort of like figure that the 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:26.480 world's going to win. 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.480 World one, day zero. 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.410 No, I think, no, I think it's 00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:32.480 actually world two, day one. 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:33.480 I don't think it's zero. 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:34.480 I disagree with that. 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:35.910 But I understand what you're 00:04:35.910 --> 00:04:36.480 saying. 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:37.620 Yeah, I mean, the thing is that 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:38.570 if we were to go back and look 00:04:38.570 --> 00:04:40.480 over the sequence of events, 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.600 you know, I remember clearly 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:44.640 realizing that you were going 00:04:44.640 --> 00:04:46.480 to be doing this every day. 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:47.810 And I felt a little bit of 00:04:47.810 --> 00:04:49.640 sinking feeling that I knew 00:04:49.640 --> 00:04:51.480 that, you know, you were so 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:51.480 much 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:53.620 like more professional at this 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:54.480 than I am. 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:56.300 But then again, we both know, 00:04:56.300 --> 00:04:57.980 okay, that the sort of rough 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:00.480 ness and amateurishness of it, 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:02.960 the mature dishness of these 00:05:02.960 --> 00:05:04.350 things is actually very 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:05.480 important. 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.030 It's the sort of signal of 00:05:07.030 --> 00:05:08.290 authority, but it's not 00:05:08.290 --> 00:05:10.480 something that's manufactured. 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.150 So, like when we got the email 00:05:12.150 --> 00:05:15.380 today from Ron Bloom, that Ron 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:18.480 is, we're basically, we're 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:19.440 talking about starting a 00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:20.480 company with a podcast. 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:21.480 There you go. 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:22.480 We said it. 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:23.480 Thank you. 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:25.150 We're more than talking about 00:05:25.150 --> 00:05:25.480 it. 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:26.480 Yeah. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.980 And we've been doing this for 00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:30.480 quite a while. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.670 And now that Adam moved to, you 00:05:32.670 --> 00:05:34.850 know, got his move done, you 00:05:34.850 --> 00:05:36.480 know, basically it's sort 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.990 of time to get serious about 00:05:37.990 --> 00:05:38.480 this. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:39.480 Yeah. 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:40.660 You know, Ron said that, well, 00:05:40.660 --> 00:05:41.680 we're going to do, Ron is a 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:43.480 great business guy and a very 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.120 interesting sort of third 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.480 member of the team. 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:48.250 But, you know, he said, look, 00:05:48.250 --> 00:05:49.300 that it's going to be like TV 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:50.480 and stuff like that. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:51.830 No, it's not going to be like 00:05:51.830 --> 00:05:52.480 TV at all. 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:54.630 I mean, basically, you know, 00:05:54.630 --> 00:05:57.080 whatever, to whatever extent 00:05:57.080 --> 00:05:58.480 there is sort of a pyramid 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.010 to what we're doing, I want to 00:06:00.010 --> 00:06:01.480 knock it down, you know. 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:02.480 I want to flatten it out. 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:04.680 I want to create a medium, not 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:06.790 an age set, you know, not a 00:06:06.790 --> 00:06:07.480 dominance. 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.320 I don't mind if people look to 00:06:09.320 --> 00:06:11.450 us for leadership, but, and I 00:06:11.450 --> 00:06:13.480 certainly want to make money. 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:14.910 I'm tired of giving things away 00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:16.480 and not making any money on it. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.150 But that sort of dominance that 00:06:19.150 --> 00:06:21.740 comes from your sitting there 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:23.480 watching and we're on 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:24.750 the other end talking to 00:06:24.750 --> 00:06:25.480 bullshit. 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:26.970 I don't want to do it, you know 00:06:26.970 --> 00:06:27.480 , right? 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.480 We're in anything that way. 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:30.480 No. 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:31.480 So, okay. 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:32.490 But you were going to get to 00:06:32.490 --> 00:06:33.720 another point, which I thought 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:34.480 was important. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.750 Don't gloss over that that 00:06:37.750 --> 00:06:40.480 about the articles. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:41.480 Yeah. 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:42.950 Well, we see we're coexisting 00:06:42.950 --> 00:06:44.480 with the old media, right? 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:46.260 The old media is what we grew 00:06:46.260 --> 00:06:48.480 up with in the 20th century. 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:49.890 I was a part of it in the 20th 00:06:49.890 --> 00:06:50.480 century. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:51.480 Absolutely. 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:53.240 You were a very important part 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:54.480 of it, actually. 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.570 And that was all built around a 00:06:57.570 --> 00:07:00.480 centralized structure. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.130 There was no way of avoiding it 00:07:03.130 --> 00:07:03.480 . 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:04.730 I mean, that was what we were 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:06.510 pioneering in the 20th century, 00:07:06.510 --> 00:07:08.480 was this idea that, you 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.070 know, that you could distribute 00:07:10.070 --> 00:07:11.480 things on a massive level. 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.070 But in the technology in the 20 00:07:13.070 --> 00:07:14.520 th century, the only way to do 00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:15.480 that is by massively 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.480 centralizing. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.490 And now in the 21st century, we 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:20.040 can distribute on a massive 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:21.480 level without 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:22.480 centralizing. 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.160 And, you know, it's like, 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:25.910 Seattle wires up next year and 00:07:25.910 --> 00:07:27.480 has Wi-Fi all over it's 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:28.480 downtown. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:29.140 Is that going to be free for 00:07:29.140 --> 00:07:29.480 everyone? 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:30.350 Is that going to be a total 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:31.480 service for the community? 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:32.480 I don't know. 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:33.480 No, it's not going to be free. 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.330 But, you know, some places it 00:07:35.330 --> 00:07:37.140 will be free and eventually I 00:07:37.140 --> 00:07:38.480 think you'll let me know, 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:39.480 is your cell phone free? 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:40.480 I mean, you know. 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.480 No, no, okay, good point. 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:44.480 Good point. 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:45.480 Right. 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:47.240 But when that happens, now all 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.480 of a sudden, you know, you're 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:50.480 not limited to the radio 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:51.480 dial for your spectrum. 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:52.900 You know, you can have as many 00:07:52.900 --> 00:07:54.450 stations as there are, you know 00:07:54.450 --> 00:07:55.480 , IP addresses. 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:57.480 Oh, I love that. 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.340 As many stations as there are 00:07:59.340 --> 00:08:00.480 IP addresses. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:01.340 Actually, it's better than that 00:08:01.340 --> 00:08:01.480 . 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:02.760 It's as many as there are 00:08:02.760 --> 00:08:03.480 domain names. 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:04.480 Yeah. 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:05.440 Because you could have multiple 00:08:05.440 --> 00:08:06.480 domain names for IP addresses. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:07.480 For IP addresses, yeah. 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:08.480 Yeah, exactly. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.290 So, it's like the spectrum 00:08:10.290 --> 00:08:12.500 issue just went away, you know, 00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:14.480 or it's about to go away. 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:15.650 And so now the question is just 00:08:15.650 --> 00:08:16.890 , what happened with personal 00:08:16.890 --> 00:08:17.480 computers? 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:18.790 You know, what happened with 00:08:18.790 --> 00:08:20.480 personal computers before that? 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:21.960 And this I remember very well, 00:08:21.960 --> 00:08:23.390 you know, because I learned how 00:08:23.390 --> 00:08:24.480 to program in the days before 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:25.480 a person's computer. 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:27.770 And in those days, the human 00:08:27.770 --> 00:08:30.090 being's time was considered 00:08:30.090 --> 00:08:32.480 disposable and the computer's 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:34.480 time was considered precious. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:35.990 And once the PC came out, it 00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:37.480 was all flipped around. 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.050 And now all of a sudden, you 00:08:39.050 --> 00:08:40.580 know, it's the young, it was 00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:42.480 the, you know, computers became 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:43.480 a free good. 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:45.480 And people became inexpensive. 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:47.530 And the same thing's happening 00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:49.350 here is that, you know, I have, 00:08:49.350 --> 00:08:50.480 if I have an hour a day 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.600 for listening to podcasts, well 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.130 , you know, that means that 00:08:54.130 --> 00:08:55.480 there's a tremendous limit 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:56.480 on what I can listen to. 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:57.480 Right. 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:58.480 It used to be, it used to be 00:08:58.480 --> 00:08:59.480 that I'd flip the dial. 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:00.740 There were three public radio 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:02.110 stations in Seattle, which is a 00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:02.480 lot. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:03.480 Okay. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:04.480 That's a lot. 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.090 The chance is that any of them 00:09:06.090 --> 00:09:07.790 had anything I was interested 00:09:07.790 --> 00:09:09.480 in listening to on any given 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:10.480 moment was nil. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:11.480 It never happened. 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:14.110 So, you know, you just flip 00:09:14.110 --> 00:09:15.480 that switch. 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.690 And so, you know, can you have 00:09:17.690 --> 00:09:20.100 a company, a media company that 00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:21.480 's sort of camped out at 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.480 that, you know, intersection? 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:24.770 The answer is if we're smart 00:09:24.770 --> 00:09:25.950 about it, you can have an 00:09:25.950 --> 00:09:27.480 incredible media company. 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:28.480 Right. 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.150 Well, and that would be the 00:09:30.150 --> 00:09:31.450 media company for the next 00:09:31.450 --> 00:09:32.480 century. 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:33.480 Yeah. 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:34.480 21st century media. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.480 21st century. 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:36.480 For this century. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:37.480 Right. 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:38.480 Yeah. 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:39.540 I mean, we're not going to get 00:09:39.540 --> 00:09:40.570 grandiose and fifths for the 00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:41.480 third millennium. 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:42.740 I mean, that would be a little 00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:44.090 bit, you know, that would sort 00:09:44.090 --> 00:09:45.480 of like be third right here. 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:46.900 Well, that would be like we'd 00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:48.480 have to live a real long time. 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.010 I'm not saying I'm living that 00:09:50.010 --> 00:09:50.480 long. 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:51.650 Fuck now, because, you know, we 00:09:51.650 --> 00:09:52.750 'll be old and cranky motherfuck 00:09:52.750 --> 00:09:54.480 ers if we live that long. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:55.480 Fuck that shit. 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:56.480 I'm already there. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.480 It's so funny. 00:09:57.480 --> 00:09:59.410 The other thing I talked about, 00:09:59.410 --> 00:10:01.120 it's amazing how you segwayed 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:02.480 perfectly into it. 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:03.480 I mean, I'm not even though. 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:04.420 I talked about a phone 00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:05.750 conversation yesterday with 00:10:05.750 --> 00:10:06.480 Dave Jacobs. 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.480 How was Dave Jacobs? 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.480 Well, I'm about to tell you. 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.670 The amazing thing about where 00:10:12.670 --> 00:10:14.920 Dave was at is that, you know, 00:10:14.920 --> 00:10:17.480 I've known him for, I guess, 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:19.480 about over 15 years. 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.650 And for 10 of those 15 years, I 00:10:21.650 --> 00:10:23.170 've known that he had this 00:10:23.170 --> 00:10:25.480 disease that basically was a 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:25.480 death 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:26.480 sex. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.500 And, and of course, all the 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:31.110 time I've known him, he's known 00:10:31.110 --> 00:10:31.480 that. 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:33.580 And talking to him yesterday, 00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:35.440 it became clear that something 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.480 fundamentally had changed. 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.260 And, you know, I'm glad that 00:10:39.260 --> 00:10:40.480 that's the case. 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:41.770 And it was an amazing 00:10:41.770 --> 00:10:43.480 experience, you know. 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.650 I just, I was blown away after 00:10:45.650 --> 00:10:46.480 I cried. 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:47.480 I really did. 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:48.480 It was like, he did too. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:49.180 It was like, what a fucking 00:10:49.180 --> 00:10:49.480 relief. 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:50.880 You know, I said, what I said, 00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:52.240 they got us both going with 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:52.480 shit. 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.240 I was getting burned out of 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.160 this stuff and it wasn't even 00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:57.480 happening to me. 00:10:57.480 --> 00:10:59.810 And it's like, wow, oh, there 00:10:59.810 --> 00:11:00.480 it is. 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:01.140 It's like, we're going to get 00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:01.480 over it. 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:02.680 You know, I mean, he still has 00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:03.800 challenges, but we all have 00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:04.480 challenges. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.480 And he got his life back. 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.570 And so people think that there 00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:10.400 's like the same list of life 00:11:10.400 --> 00:11:12.480 that nothing ever changes. 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.480 You know, well, this changed. 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.480 Somebody's life changed here. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:17.750 And a lot of other lives that 00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:19.010 were sort of connected up to 00:11:19.010 --> 00:11:19.480 that. 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:20.480 A change with it, of course. 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:21.480 Right. 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:22.480 Absolutely. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:23.210 Well, it always brings me back 00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:23.740 to the one thing that I've 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:25.480 repeated many, many times that 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.480 either you said or wrote. 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:29.850 I think you probably wrote it 00:11:29.850 --> 00:11:30.480 somewhere. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.480 Life is not a waltz. 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:35.290 It's a wild jungle dance and 00:11:35.290 --> 00:11:37.480 shit happens when people change 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:37.480 . 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.160 And I think you said shit 00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:40.480 happens again. 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.480 No, I didn't say that. 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.850 The piece is "Programmers" and 00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:45.480 it was written in 1997. 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:47.130 And it's probably one of the 00:11:47.130 --> 00:11:48.750 best pieces if I could say so 00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:49.480 myself. 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:50.480 It was good piece. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:51.480 It sort of wrote itself. 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:52.480 Yeah. 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.040 I mean, I wanted to tell a 00:11:54.040 --> 00:11:55.820 friend of mine who had a lot of 00:11:55.820 --> 00:11:56.480 anger. 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:57.890 I really thought her anger was 00:11:57.890 --> 00:11:58.480 beautiful. 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.190 And I meant she shouldn't worry 00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:01.480 about me dodging it. 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.110 You know, it's like, it's 00:12:03.110 --> 00:12:04.760 because people do put all these 00:12:04.760 --> 00:12:06.480 judgments on certain things. 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.140 The fact is that if anger is 00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:10.280 expressed safely, it can be a 00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:11.480 good thing. 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:12.480 It's a good thing. 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:13.480 It can be a good thing. 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:14.480 Incredibly beautiful. 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:15.980 A lot of creativity comes from 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:16.480 anger. 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.340 A lot of movement comes from 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:19.920 anger, you know, as long as you 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:20.480 do it safely. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:21.790 And then, you know, the thing 00:12:21.790 --> 00:12:23.020 is that you just, you just can 00:12:23.020 --> 00:12:25.480 't predict what's coming next. 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:26.560 And that's the thing is you 00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:27.770 trick yourself into believing 00:12:27.770 --> 00:12:28.480 you can know. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.380 But if you actually go back and 00:12:30.380 --> 00:12:32.120 look at your life and see how 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:33.480 things played out, you realize 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.480 that you're in good health. 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:36.680 Oh yeah, God, you have no 00:12:36.680 --> 00:12:37.480 fucking clue. 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:38.680 And everything you think that 00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:39.830 'll happen is always happens 00:12:39.830 --> 00:12:40.480 backwards. 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:41.480 Yeah. 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.190 Like, did you know your mom was 00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:44.480 going to get cancer? 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:45.480 No. 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:47.000 I mean, that's like, and, you 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:48.630 know, and now it looks like, I 00:12:48.630 --> 00:12:51.480 mean, shit, the operation 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:52.480 is going to be on the 23rd. 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:53.480 Wow. 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.160 I didn't even think Christmas 00:12:55.160 --> 00:12:56.480 was going to change. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:57.480 And it is. 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.480 Where is that happening? 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:01.480 In Holland in New York. 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.480 I'm going over, obviously. 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:04.480 Yeah. 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.130 So yeah, 22nd, she goes in 23rd 00:13:07.130 --> 00:13:08.480 is the operation. 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.780 They expect her to be in the 00:13:10.780 --> 00:13:13.720 hospital for an average of 10 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.480 days is what is what they think 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.230 it takes, but she's strong, man 00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:18.480 . 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.480 She's so fucking strong. 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:20.480 Yeah. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:21.900 So, but yeah, I mean, yeah, 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:22.480 exactly. 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:23.860 Who the fuck knows what's going 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:24.480 to happen? 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.050 You can't play it on stuff like 00:13:26.050 --> 00:13:26.480 that. 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.480 No. 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.480 No. 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.060 So anyway, so all of this is a 00:13:31.060 --> 00:13:33.580 big round loop to come back to 00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:35.980 the fact that we want to feel 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:37.020 good about ourselves and 00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:38.480 talking about what we're doing. 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:39.480 Yeah. 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:40.480 Well, sure. 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:41.480 Yeah. 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:42.830 I forgot how I got into the big 00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:44.070 Jenkins thing, but it was 00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:46.480 important for me to mention it. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:47.480 Yeah. 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.110 Well, you said let's not talk 00:13:49.110 --> 00:13:50.480 about the third millennium. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:51.780 We'll let other people worry 00:13:51.780 --> 00:13:52.480 about that. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.270 Let's just worry about the 00:13:53.270 --> 00:13:54.480 beginning of the 21st century. 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:55.480 About the current one. 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:56.480 We're here. 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:57.480 We're here now. 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.480 We could be something about it. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:59.480 Yeah. 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.460 But as we're thinking about 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:04.100 names and stuff like that, it's 00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:06.480 funny because, yes, and I knew 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:07.910 that you had written this and I 00:14:07.910 --> 00:14:09.460 actually, I went looking for it 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:10.600 and it was hard to find 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:12.660 because I didn't, I couldn't 00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:14.310 remember if it was titled How 00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:15.920 to Name a Company or how to 00:14:15.920 --> 00:14:17.220 name, and anyway, it was like 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.280 how to name a product. 00:14:18.280 --> 00:14:19.450 I knew you had written these 00:14:19.450 --> 00:14:20.800 awesome guidelines which I've 00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:22.080 used several times before and 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.840 then today you fucking link to 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:25.650 it after I spent at least 20 00:14:25.650 --> 00:14:27.280 minutes trying to find it 00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:28.280 yesterday. 00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:29.280 You didn't let me know. 00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:30.280 I know how to find this. 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:32.170 Oh, I know, but the whole point 00:14:32.170 --> 00:14:33.560 was I wanted to find that 00:14:33.560 --> 00:14:34.280 myself. 00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:35.280 Oh, well, okay. 00:14:35.280 --> 00:14:36.750 Then you couldn't ask me 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:37.280 anything. 00:14:37.280 --> 00:14:38.280 No. 00:14:38.280 --> 00:14:39.320 Because it's like if I couldn't 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.440 , really, really couldn't find 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.640 it, then I would have asked you 00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:42.280 , 00:14:42.280 --> 00:14:43.720 of course, but I felt I could 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:44.280 find it. 00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:46.370 Why don't we go over what the 00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:48.230 four people we talked about 00:14:48.230 --> 00:14:50.280 naming things because one of 00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:51.550 the things that I believe is 00:14:51.550 --> 00:14:52.950 that before you even talk about 00:14:52.950 --> 00:14:54.280 , think about naming, you've 00:14:54.280 --> 00:14:56.180 got to figure out first, what 00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:57.280 are you doing? 00:14:57.280 --> 00:14:59.100 Second of all, what do you want 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:00.860 to confede people with that 00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:01.280 name? 00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:02.590 How do you want them to think 00:15:02.590 --> 00:15:03.280 about you? 00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:04.530 It's like how did you come up 00:15:04.530 --> 00:15:05.520 with the power of pure 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:06.280 intellect? 00:15:06.280 --> 00:15:08.280 I'm not asking you rhetorical. 00:15:08.280 --> 00:15:09.680 I'm not asking you to answer 00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:11.280 that rhetorical question. 00:15:11.280 --> 00:15:12.280 Right. 00:15:12.280 --> 00:15:13.390 I'm not asking you to tell how 00:15:13.390 --> 00:15:14.280 you came up with it. 00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:15.280 Let me do this again. 00:15:15.280 --> 00:15:16.310 It's like sort of like you've 00:15:16.310 --> 00:15:17.240 heard it and you thought it 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:18.280 sounded interesting and you 00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:19.280 decided to play it. 00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:20.280 Exactly. 00:15:20.280 --> 00:15:21.280 Yeah. 00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:22.480 And then you said, "Oh, let's 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:23.280 try that again." 00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:24.470 And it worked the second time 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:25.280 in the third time. 00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:26.520 And then everybody, you found 00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:27.810 yourself saying that and then, 00:15:27.810 --> 00:15:28.280 "Boy." 00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:30.120 I think I was there when that 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:31.280 first came up. 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:32.870 When the boy, yeah, boy, boy, 00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:33.280 boy. 00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:35.030 I had the next girlfriend of 00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:36.280 mine on a trade secret. 00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:37.540 That's right, that's right, 00:15:37.540 --> 00:15:38.280 that's right. 00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:40.280 You never saw the light of day. 00:15:40.280 --> 00:15:41.280 Immediately. 00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:42.280 That's right. 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:43.930 Well, no, like three boings of 00:15:43.930 --> 00:15:45.280 that made it on the end. 00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:47.270 The rest was all destroyed and 00:15:47.270 --> 00:15:49.280 a horrible system crashed. 00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:50.640 I think it actually did make it 00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:51.280 on the air. 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:52.830 I think Steve Gilmore commented 00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:53.280 on it. 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:55.790 He couldn't play it on the Gil 00:15:55.790 --> 00:15:58.430 more gang because of who it was 00:15:58.430 --> 00:15:59.280 about. 00:15:59.280 --> 00:16:01.280 International licensing issues. 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:03.280 Yeah, something like that. 00:16:03.280 --> 00:16:04.680 And all right, so what was I 00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:05.280 saying? 00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:06.650 First, we need to know what we 00:16:06.650 --> 00:16:07.280 're doing. 00:16:07.280 --> 00:16:08.280 Then what we want to convey. 00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:09.160 And then we can talk about hate 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:09.280 . 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:11.190 So first, what we're doing is 00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:12.280 podcasting. 00:16:12.280 --> 00:16:13.280 Right on. 00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:15.200 And what do we care about with 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:16.280 podcasting? 00:16:16.280 --> 00:16:17.900 Well, we need good development 00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:18.280 tools. 00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:20.280 We need aggregators. 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:22.280 We need sort of reading tools. 00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:24.040 And we need great fucking shows 00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:24.280 . 00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:27.000 We need great shows and we need 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.280 a fourth thing, which is... 00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:31.040 All our money in a brown paper 00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:32.600 bag and 24-hour day limo 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.280 service? 00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:35.280 Well, that goes without saying. 00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:36.280 And bandwidth. 00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:38.280 Bandwidth, baby, yeah. 00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:40.280 Yeah, bandwidth is... 00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:42.630 In blogging, bandwidth wasn't 00:16:42.630 --> 00:16:44.270 an issue in podcasting 00:16:44.270 --> 00:16:45.280 bandwidth. 00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:46.280 Yeah. 00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:48.140 And so, okay, we can't do 00:16:48.140 --> 00:16:49.280 everything. 00:16:49.280 --> 00:16:50.280 Right? 00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:53.320 I think what we've learned in 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:55.280 the last few weeks, 00:16:55.280 --> 00:16:57.280 we've learned where we thought 00:16:57.280 --> 00:16:58.620 we could depend on the 00:16:58.620 --> 00:16:59.280 community 00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:02.650 to do the aggregators that we 00:17:02.650 --> 00:17:04.280 can't depend on the community 00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:06.280 to do the aggregators. 00:17:06.280 --> 00:17:08.390 Now, let's just clarify, 00:17:08.390 --> 00:17:09.700 because I don't think everyone 00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:10.280 understands, 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:11.510 when we say aggregators, we're 00:17:11.510 --> 00:17:13.280 basically talking about iPoders 00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:14.280 in the podcasting sense. 00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:15.280 So, I think... 00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:16.780 You basically stayed out of iP 00:17:16.780 --> 00:17:17.280 oders. 00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:18.620 Once you finished doing your 00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.280 work there, it was sort of like 00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:23.280 I was watching from a distance. 00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:24.620 Watching the mail list to see 00:17:24.620 --> 00:17:25.280 what was going on. 00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:26.760 Things seemed to be going 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:27.280 smoothly. 00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:29.650 And I didn't see any reason at 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:31.280 all to get involved, 00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:33.050 because people seem generally 00:17:33.050 --> 00:17:34.730 to be happy with what was going 00:17:34.730 --> 00:17:35.280 on there. 00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:37.280 They don't fix it, right? 00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:38.740 But then there's sort of famous 00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:40.420 whole battles, and it really 00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:41.280 was a battle 00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:43.510 over whether or not we would 00:17:43.510 --> 00:17:46.280 break the RSS 2.0 stack. 00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:47.940 I don't consider that to be a 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.670 subjective discussion, and I 00:17:49.670 --> 00:17:51.280 don't want to discuss it. 00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:52.280 I don't think it... 00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:53.280 Yeah, I agree. 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:54.280 It's like... 00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:55.970 And the horrible thing about 00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:57.280 that is that there was a week, 00:17:57.280 --> 00:18:00.070 a whole week of off-list email 00:18:00.070 --> 00:18:02.280 conversation going on, 00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:04.250 which I think I know you and I 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.600 got real uncomfortable with all 00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:07.280 that. 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:08.650 It was like all of a sudden 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:10.280 there was a little... 00:18:10.280 --> 00:18:11.280 Yeah, go ahead. 00:18:11.280 --> 00:18:12.280 I mean, that part you did. 00:18:12.280 --> 00:18:14.100 I mean, you did a beautiful job 00:18:14.100 --> 00:18:16.120 with starting iPoders community 00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:16.280 off, 00:18:16.280 --> 00:18:18.040 and then there are new maintain 00:18:18.040 --> 00:18:19.280 ers of that stuff. 00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:21.390 And what they need to do is 00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:22.830 they need to adopt a sort of 00:18:22.830 --> 00:18:24.280 helpful point of view. 00:18:24.280 --> 00:18:26.280 It's like, we're here to help, 00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:28.560 and users and developers party 00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:29.280 together. 00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:32.160 And that doesn't include 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.750 developers trying to be fasc 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:36.280 ists with the user, you know? 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:38.280 [laughter] 00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:40.120 I mean, I said at one point to 00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:41.280 one of these guys, 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:42.270 "Jay, you might want to just 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:43.280 cut out a little bit of slack," 00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:45.970 because basically, you've got a 00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:48.280 really popular podcast that 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:49.280 wears your up sign 00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:51.280 and be in piffy with the guy. 00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:53.550 And unfortunately, developers 00:18:53.550 --> 00:18:56.280 are like, they don't get that. 00:18:56.280 --> 00:18:57.280 A lot of them don't get it. 00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:58.780 And when you find one that sort 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:00.250 of says, "Look, I'm here to 00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:01.280 serve the users. 00:19:01.280 --> 00:19:03.280 That's why I'm doing this. 00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:05.120 And I'm not going to bring any 00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:07.280 of my own bullshit into this." 00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:09.280 Then we're happy. 00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:12.090 And if we can get there without 00:19:12.090 --> 00:19:14.280 having to put into this, right? 00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:15.280 Right. 00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:16.280 Then we'll stay out of it. 00:19:16.280 --> 00:19:18.470 Because frankly, every day I 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:20.550 hear about another iPoder and 00:19:20.550 --> 00:19:22.080 another sort of group of people 00:19:22.080 --> 00:19:22.280 . 00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:23.550 I mean, even the VCs are 00:19:23.550 --> 00:19:25.280 starting investing this show. 00:19:25.280 --> 00:19:26.280 Oh, of course. 00:19:26.280 --> 00:19:28.730 I mean, this, and I think that 00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:30.760 's -- you and I both said, "Hey, 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:31.280 look, 00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:33.500 here's something that finally 00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.400 we're getting recognition for 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:37.280 creating, 00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:40.420 something that we did create, 00:19:40.420 --> 00:19:42.420 which is based upon an 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:43.880 incredible body of work that 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:44.280 you did, 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:46.990 which has just -- and that's 00:19:46.990 --> 00:19:48.990 had a whole fucking life of its 00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:51.280 own on and off list. 00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:52.280 Let's just call it that. 00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:54.750 And lots of people have made 00:19:54.750 --> 00:19:58.280 money off of web logs and RSS. 00:19:58.280 --> 00:20:02.250 And I think that guys like you 00:20:02.250 --> 00:20:06.280 and I, we need to at some point 00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:06.280 -- 00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:06.920 and it doesn't have to be every 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:08.130 single time, but at some point 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:08.280 -- 00:20:08.280 --> 00:20:09.430 I think you've said this, we've 00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:10.090 got to make a little bit of 00:20:10.090 --> 00:20:12.420 money so we can go on and help 00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.280 with the next thing. 00:20:14.280 --> 00:20:16.540 We've got to capitalize on this 00:20:16.540 --> 00:20:18.690 or we'll never be able to help 00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:20.280 with the next step. 00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:22.080 I think that it's even -- yes, 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:23.980 I totally fully agree with that 00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:24.280 . 00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:27.200 And it's even more than that, 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.280 though. 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.390 I think that in order to be 00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:33.000 successful at this idea of 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.310 starting something like this 00:20:35.310 --> 00:20:36.280 and seeing it through, 00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:38.130 you have to make sure that the 00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:40.620 iPodder thing, which is a key 00:20:40.620 --> 00:20:42.280 element of the whole system, 00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:44.240 is on a solid foundation and 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.550 where it doesn't, like, split 00:20:46.550 --> 00:20:47.280 apart. 00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:49.100 The thing you don't want to 00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:51.250 have to deal with is to have to 00:20:51.250 --> 00:20:53.460 use one program to listen to 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.280 one podcast 00:20:54.280 --> 00:20:55.570 and another program to 00:20:55.570 --> 00:20:57.280 subscribe to another one. 00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:58.800 In other words, like, if you 00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:00.430 had to -- it's sort of like, if 00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:01.280 you had to use -- 00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:02.540 you could only read -- The New 00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:03.620 York Times could only be read 00:21:03.620 --> 00:21:04.280 on the Macintosh 00:21:04.280 --> 00:21:05.770 and The Wall Street Journal 00:21:05.770 --> 00:21:07.280 could only be read on the PC. 00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:08.280 Well, that would suck, right? 00:21:08.280 --> 00:21:09.280 Or you don't want to go there. 00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:10.280 Or you could even -- 00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:11.280 Yeah, you could even -- 00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:13.350 Or you could even use a watch 00:21:13.350 --> 00:21:14.280 on the PC. 00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:16.280 And that's where we got to. 00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:17.880 That's where this discussion 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:18.280 got to. 00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:20.080 So this is sort of a message to 00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:22.280 the iPodder developer community 00:21:22.280 --> 00:21:24.250 that we are not without options 00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:25.280 here, okay? 00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:27.280 It's still really early. 00:21:27.280 --> 00:21:28.950 If you're feeling like you've 00:21:28.950 --> 00:21:30.340 got a sizable piece of the 00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:32.280 install base, I swear to God, 00:21:32.280 --> 00:21:33.780 this is a tiny fraction of what 00:21:33.780 --> 00:21:34.280 's coming. 00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:35.530 This is fucking nothing 00:21:35.530 --> 00:21:37.280 compared to what's out there. 00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:39.000 Right. And so let's get it 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.020 together and let's get a real 00:21:40.020 --> 00:21:42.280 sense of developer and user 00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:43.280 reporting together. 00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:45.350 If not, developers party 00:21:45.350 --> 00:21:47.510 together and forget all about 00:21:47.510 --> 00:21:48.280 users. 00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:49.280 Not that. 00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:51.170 And I got to tell you, I feel a 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:52.830 little -- just a little bit 00:21:52.830 --> 00:21:54.280 responsible for some of that 00:21:54.280 --> 00:21:56.230 because what happened with the 00:21:56.230 --> 00:21:59.280 iPodder dev list is it exploded 00:21:59.280 --> 00:21:59.280 . 00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:00.640 And also kind of at a time when 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.280 I was moving and, you know, 00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:03.350 I didn't really have a lot of 00:22:03.350 --> 00:22:04.610 time to focus on the, you know, 00:22:04.610 --> 00:22:05.280 hundreds of messages 00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:06.280 that seemed to appear daily. 00:22:06.280 --> 00:22:07.280 No, you're not responsible. 00:22:07.280 --> 00:22:08.590 Well, yeah, but I couldn't 00:22:08.590 --> 00:22:09.280 control it. 00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:11.280 I could not add anything. 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.480 If you tried to control it, you 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:14.860 would have learned the same 00:22:14.860 --> 00:22:16.280 thing that you couldn't control 00:22:16.280 --> 00:22:16.280 it 00:22:16.280 --> 00:22:17.280 and it would have been a mess. 00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:18.280 Okay, good. 00:22:18.280 --> 00:22:20.730 Yeah, I mean, you know, it just 00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:22.480 got to the point where, you 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.280 know, it just had to happen. 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:25.020 I mean, that's just what 00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:25.280 happened. 00:22:25.280 --> 00:22:26.280 Yeah. 00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:27.480 And you can't take 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.280 responsibility for it. 00:22:29.280 --> 00:22:30.480 It's just something you're 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:31.280 responsible for. 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:32.690 It's just -- I mean, hasn't, 00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:33.750 like, you know, become a big 00:22:33.750 --> 00:22:34.280 problem yet. 00:22:34.280 --> 00:22:36.280 And so that's number one. 00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:37.950 Number two is there's all kinds 00:22:37.950 --> 00:22:39.590 of other development, content 00:22:39.590 --> 00:22:40.280 development tools. 00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:42.280 It's a very rich area. 00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:44.580 And our little company or big 00:22:44.580 --> 00:22:45.890 company, if we hope it becomes 00:22:45.890 --> 00:22:47.830 a big one, right, isn't going 00:22:47.830 --> 00:22:49.860 to be in every aspect of that 00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.280 fight. 00:22:50.280 --> 00:22:51.920 Any stretch of the United 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:53.280 Nations, right? 00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:54.820 And so there's all kinds of 00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:56.640 stuff that you use that we can 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.280 be in a position to endorse. 00:22:58.280 --> 00:23:00.280 We can work with people. 00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:02.170 By the way, don't forget that 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:03.990 there's also iPods and equival 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:05.280 ents, you know. 00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:07.770 There's like, what is the ideal 00:23:07.770 --> 00:23:10.280 iPod for podcasting look like? 00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:11.490 Well, I can tell you for sure, 00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:12.620 it's not the thing that Apple 00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:13.280 should say. 00:23:13.280 --> 00:23:14.280 Nope. 00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:15.280 That's not ideal. 00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:16.410 Not even the one that you have 00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:17.280 the U2 name on it. 00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:18.820 That doesn't even come close 00:23:18.820 --> 00:23:19.280 either. 00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:20.280 Yeah, I'm sorry. 00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:20.870 I'm afraid that this is the 00:23:20.870 --> 00:23:21.280 same thing. 00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:22.840 Unless it has a fucking message 00:23:22.840 --> 00:23:23.280 on it. 00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:24.080 Yeah, if you have a cell phone 00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:24.640 on it, that might be a 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.280 different story. 00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:27.320 You get a bit -- no, I'm only 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:28.280 kidding. 00:23:28.280 --> 00:23:29.480 No, it needs to have Wi-Fi 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:30.280 built into it. 00:23:30.280 --> 00:23:32.280 It needs to have aggregators. 00:23:32.280 --> 00:23:34.360 The iPod needs to run on by 00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:35.280 itself. 00:23:35.280 --> 00:23:36.280 Right? 00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:38.050 It needs to constantly do it 00:23:38.050 --> 00:23:39.940 for a Wi-Fi signal to see if it 00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:41.280 can find a police cell. 00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:44.560 Just as a quick sidebar, we're 00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:46.050 recording this show on my cell 00:23:46.050 --> 00:23:46.280 phone. 00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:47.280 Just want you to know that -- 00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:48.280 Yeah, I'm kidding. 00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:49.280 It's fucking amazing. 00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:52.640 This thing -- I knew it did MP3 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.280 s. 00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:55.280 As in it can record them. 00:23:55.280 --> 00:23:56.280 It can play them. 00:23:56.280 --> 00:23:57.710 But it's actually -- there's a 00:23:57.710 --> 00:23:58.860 button on it that lets you 00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:00.280 record your conversation. 00:24:00.280 --> 00:24:02.720 It's not -- it has, I think, a 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.280 reasonably mature OS in there. 00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:08.060 It should not be a big stretch 00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:10.820 for this thing to have iPod or 00:24:10.820 --> 00:24:12.280 functionality. 00:24:12.280 --> 00:24:15.300 And with GPRS, which is to step 00:24:15.300 --> 00:24:17.580 up from cell phones and way 00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:18.280 below Wi-Fi. 00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:20.020 But it has its built-in network 00:24:20.020 --> 00:24:20.280 . 00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:21.280 I mean, this is -- 00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:22.280 What brand of phone is that? 00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:25.280 This is a Sony Ericsson. 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:29.280 It's the 700i. 00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:30.870 And I didn't really think much 00:24:30.870 --> 00:24:31.280 of it. 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:32.260 It's just there was like one 00:24:32.260 --> 00:24:33.570 that I thought looked nice when 00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:34.930 I picked it up from Virgin 00:24:34.930 --> 00:24:35.280 Mobile. 00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:36.690 But it had this functionality 00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:37.280 in there. 00:24:37.280 --> 00:24:39.280 And it's outrageous. 00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:41.280 I gotta tell you something. 00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:43.460 When you just said, I didn't 00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:45.280 think very much of it. 00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:46.740 It had a little bit of a liver- 00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:48.280 pull thing going on there. 00:24:48.280 --> 00:24:50.280 It might have happened to me. 00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:52.280 Yeah, you started flipping. 00:24:52.280 --> 00:24:53.680 You asked me to tell you if you 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.280 were flipping into it, right? 00:24:55.280 --> 00:24:56.280 Oh my God. 00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:58.280 It's happening already. 00:24:58.280 --> 00:25:00.280 It's getting assimilated. 00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:02.460 I think something to the UK 00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:03.280 whole. 00:25:03.280 --> 00:25:05.280 Now, you get compensated. 00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:06.280 You get overcompensated. 00:25:06.280 --> 00:25:08.280 They're becoming harms. 00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:10.000 No, but I can become the 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.280 database boy. 00:25:11.280 --> 00:25:13.440 We have many people from India, 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.280 Pakistan here in the UK. 00:25:15.280 --> 00:25:16.280 And when we have electricity, 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:18.280 we'll be even faster. 00:25:18.280 --> 00:25:19.280 All right. 00:25:19.280 --> 00:25:20.340 So let me just run through some 00:25:20.340 --> 00:25:21.280 more of iPod features. 00:25:21.280 --> 00:25:22.280 That phone is great. 00:25:22.280 --> 00:25:24.280 And that's, you know, okay. 00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:26.480 There's like this matrix of 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.280 features. 00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:29.280 It's a confusing situation. 00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:31.280 But what do we need? 00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.810 And by the way, we ought to 00:25:32.810 --> 00:25:33.280 also be-- 00:25:33.280 --> 00:25:34.450 I mean, so like we need better 00:25:34.450 --> 00:25:35.280 user interface. 00:25:35.280 --> 00:25:36.970 We need a button that we can 00:25:36.970 --> 00:25:38.280 press while driving. 00:25:38.280 --> 00:25:39.280 Yeah, actually, yeah. 00:25:39.280 --> 00:25:40.280 Big red one, yeah. 00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:41.280 Yeah. 00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:43.310 And then, okay, we need a ROM- 00:25:43.310 --> 00:25:45.050 able iPod or we need something 00:25:45.050 --> 00:25:46.280 that works in this mode. 00:25:46.280 --> 00:25:48.880 So the UI has to collapse down 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.280 to just a four-button UI. 00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.280 Sure, it dots. 00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:55.110 But what about when you're not 00:25:55.110 --> 00:25:55.280 docked? 00:25:55.280 --> 00:25:56.020 And how can we keep it so that 00:25:56.020 --> 00:25:56.850 if you're doing this while you 00:25:56.850 --> 00:25:57.280 're driving, 00:25:57.280 --> 00:25:58.260 you don't know if you're 00:25:58.260 --> 00:25:59.280 driving off the road? 00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:00.280 This is a big deal, right? 00:26:00.280 --> 00:26:02.010 Saving the lives of our iPoders 00:26:02.010 --> 00:26:02.280 . 00:26:02.280 --> 00:26:03.280 We really care about that. 00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:05.130 And in fact, I have to say that 00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:05.280 -- 00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:07.710 and I've been a cell phone guy 00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:09.280 for a long time. 00:26:09.280 --> 00:26:10.730 Some cell phone interfaces are 00:26:10.730 --> 00:26:12.280 actually starting to make sense 00:26:12.280 --> 00:26:13.480 because they've been through 8, 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:14.280 000 iterations, 00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:16.030 unlike the iPod and MP3 players 00:26:16.030 --> 00:26:16.280 . 00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:17.280 Yeah. 00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:18.900 And they always knew from day 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:19.970 one, hey, we've got people in 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:20.280 the car. 00:26:20.280 --> 00:26:21.280 They're mobile. 00:26:21.280 --> 00:26:22.970 So they were thinking much more 00:26:22.970 --> 00:26:24.280 about the mobile aspect. 00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:27.010 And so, yeah, just explain the 00:26:27.010 --> 00:26:28.820 ROM-able part because I know 00:26:28.820 --> 00:26:29.280 what you mean. 00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:30.200 But I don't know if all the 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:31.280 listeners know what you mean. 00:26:31.280 --> 00:26:33.230 Well, you know, I mean, ROM- 00:26:33.230 --> 00:26:35.810 able stands for able to put into 00:26:35.810 --> 00:26:37.280 read-only memory, 00:26:37.280 --> 00:26:39.280 which is really not true. 00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:40.900 It doesn't need to be 00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.540 specifically legally read-only 00:26:42.540 --> 00:26:43.280 memory. 00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:45.260 But the idea is that you're 00:26:45.260 --> 00:26:47.300 taking it out of a rich 00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:48.280 environment, 00:26:48.280 --> 00:26:51.280 like a laptop or a PC, desktop, 00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:52.540 and putting it onto one of 00:26:52.540 --> 00:26:54.220 these devices with a really 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:55.280 limited UI. 00:26:55.280 --> 00:26:57.040 So you're thinking, OK, take a 00:26:57.040 --> 00:26:59.280 big piece of software. 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:01.260 Like an iPod has got a lot of 00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:03.280 little dials and things 00:27:03.280 --> 00:27:05.500 that you can turn and things, 00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:06.280 whatever. 00:27:06.280 --> 00:27:07.280 It should. 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:08.990 So you can't do that on an iPod 00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:09.280 . 00:27:09.280 --> 00:27:11.760 You just don't have that much 00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:13.280 UI to play with. 00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:15.210 This is a whole other UI 00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:16.280 problem. 00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:18.210 And so you could say that our 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:20.880 company wants to, at the very 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:21.280 least, 00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:23.130 work with people who are 00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:24.280 creating products. 00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:26.260 And, you know, either they're 00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:28.280 in competition with the iPod, 00:27:28.280 --> 00:27:29.280 basically, 00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:30.440 or should Apple decide this is 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:31.280 an interesting area 00:27:31.280 --> 00:27:33.310 and we'd be happy to work with 00:27:33.310 --> 00:27:34.280 Apple too. 00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:35.890 Or maybe we want to create the 00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:37.280 product ourselves. 00:27:37.280 --> 00:27:38.610 I would do that with a lot of 00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.530 reluctance, but still, not 00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:41.280 ruling out, 00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:42.650 because there are OEM-type 00:27:42.650 --> 00:27:44.280 situations that one can do. 00:27:44.280 --> 00:27:45.970 And branding and stuff like 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:47.280 that can really appear 00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:48.410 that we're creating our own 00:27:48.410 --> 00:27:50.280 product and the fact we're not. 00:27:50.280 --> 00:27:51.830 Well, we're just doing the 00:27:51.830 --> 00:27:53.760 design because we understand 00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:55.280 this area as users. 00:27:55.280 --> 00:27:57.310 And we understand it as users 00:27:57.310 --> 00:27:59.470 who really, really care about 00:27:59.470 --> 00:28:00.280 this stuff. 00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:01.280 So that's another one. 00:28:01.280 --> 00:28:03.200 Now, another part of the 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:06.280 content development side is, 00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:06.280 you know, 00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:09.040 we've been, like, seeing a lot 00:28:09.040 --> 00:28:10.510 of it you've been driving has 00:28:10.510 --> 00:28:11.280 been with OPML. 00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:15.370 And there we can do a lot. And 00:28:15.370 --> 00:28:16.280 we can do it quickly. 00:28:16.280 --> 00:28:17.960 And we will do a lot and we 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.280 will do it quickly, 00:28:19.280 --> 00:28:20.960 because of the open source 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.280 release of Frontier, 00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:23.880 which includes a really 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:25.280 excellent outliner. 00:28:25.280 --> 00:28:28.000 And, you know, I would think 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.640 that maybe even before the end 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:30.280 of the year, 00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:33.690 we will have an OPML tool that 00:28:33.690 --> 00:28:35.720 works on both Windows and Mac 00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:36.280 intosh. 00:28:36.280 --> 00:28:37.280 And on my cell phone. 00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:39.280 And very, very -- pardon me? 00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:40.280 And on my cell phone. 00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:42.040 Probably not on your cell phone 00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:42.280 . 00:28:42.280 --> 00:28:44.870 Okay. I'm not -- I was dreaming 00:28:44.870 --> 00:28:45.280 again. 00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:47.610 I couldn't just say, "Oh, yeah, 00:28:47.610 --> 00:28:48.280 I'm on your cell phone." 00:28:48.280 --> 00:28:49.280 Of course. 00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:51.280 Well, hey, that's a VC pitch. 00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:52.340 That's a -- well, of course, we 00:28:52.340 --> 00:28:53.280 'll have it on every cell phone. 00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:54.160 That's for the -- that's a 00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.280 venture capitalist pitch. 00:28:55.280 --> 00:28:56.360 Well, of course, it will be on 00:28:56.360 --> 00:28:57.520 every single cell phone all 00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:59.280 over the -- over the universe. 00:28:59.280 --> 00:29:01.280 Well, yeah. 00:29:01.280 --> 00:29:02.280 Okay. 00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:04.160 It'll be a -- I'm unfortunately 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:05.660 -- you have to put me -- leave 00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:06.280 me at home on the day 00:29:06.280 --> 00:29:08.280 to go to a Mac pitch, okay? 00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:09.840 Because I'm very likely to do 00:29:09.840 --> 00:29:11.280 what I've done in the past, 00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:12.540 which is say, "Well, what do I 00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:13.280 really need?" 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:18.280 [ Laughter ] 00:29:18.280 --> 00:29:19.850 You want to leave me home that 00:29:19.850 --> 00:29:20.280 day. 00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:21.280 Okay. So what do we want to do? 00:29:21.280 --> 00:29:22.280 Content development. 00:29:22.280 --> 00:29:24.120 We listen to the listening side 00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:26.030 , the aggregating side of things 00:29:26.030 --> 00:29:26.280 . 00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:29.280 The content now, right? 00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:30.350 And this is something -- this 00:29:30.350 --> 00:29:32.470 is where I think the real juice 00:29:32.470 --> 00:29:33.280 is for us. 00:29:33.280 --> 00:29:34.280 Yeah. I agree. 00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:34.710 This is what I'm the most 00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:35.280 excited about, really. 00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:37.650 Yeah. I mean, we've got the 00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:39.930 number one podcast now, I think 00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:40.280 . 00:29:40.280 --> 00:29:41.590 Not too many people have been 00:29:41.590 --> 00:29:42.280 in dispute. 00:29:42.280 --> 00:29:45.340 Well, as Tony Khan would say, I 00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:47.090 'm the Ed Sullivan of podcasting 00:29:47.090 --> 00:29:47.280 . 00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:48.280 Exactly. 00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:50.430 And I wear that badge with 00:29:50.430 --> 00:29:51.280 pride. 00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:52.280 And you do it really well. 00:29:52.280 --> 00:29:54.280 And we love what you do. 00:29:54.280 --> 00:29:56.530 And it seems to come naturally 00:29:56.530 --> 00:29:57.280 to you. 00:29:57.280 --> 00:29:57.940 It's sort of like where you 00:29:57.940 --> 00:29:58.280 gravitate. 00:29:58.280 --> 00:29:59.280 It's what you did it into. 00:29:59.280 --> 00:30:01.500 Yeah, it's what I've done all 00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:02.280 my life. 00:30:02.280 --> 00:30:04.010 And out of that is going to 00:30:04.010 --> 00:30:05.980 come a whole new music industry 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:06.280 . 00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:08.220 Oh, man. That would be so 00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:09.280 fucking cool. 00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:10.280 Exactly. 00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.250 And maybe partnerships with RIA 00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:14.280 companies. 00:30:14.280 --> 00:30:15.280 Yeah, of course. 00:30:15.280 --> 00:30:16.280 We need to -- well, we -- 00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:18.280 Be part of this because we have 00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:19.830 a very inclusive attitude about 00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:21.280 these things. 00:30:21.280 --> 00:30:22.890 We don't want -- it's not -- we 00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:24.540 're not here to prove a point 00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:25.280 with anybody in specific. 00:30:25.280 --> 00:30:26.780 We just all we really want to 00:30:26.780 --> 00:30:28.650 do is enjoy this new medium and 00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:30.280 help develop it. 00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:32.140 And because it's just like you 00:30:32.140 --> 00:30:33.280 love it, right? 00:30:33.280 --> 00:30:34.280 Mm-hmm. 00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:39.280 And then other brand names. 00:30:39.280 --> 00:30:40.650 I guess -- I don't know how 00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:42.480 else to put it, but other brand 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.280 names from the 20th century, 00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:46.090 you know, bring them into the 00:30:46.090 --> 00:30:47.280 21st century. 00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:48.580 And I think a lot of them will 00:30:48.580 --> 00:30:50.280 carry over very, very nicely. 00:30:50.280 --> 00:30:52.680 And some of them will come 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.280 kicking and screaming. 00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:56.280 Yeah. 00:30:56.280 --> 00:30:57.870 Well, the key to the spirit 00:30:57.870 --> 00:30:59.280 part we can do without. 00:30:59.280 --> 00:31:00.280 Yeah. 00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:01.420 They can go work with our 00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:02.280 competitors. 00:31:02.280 --> 00:31:03.280 But -- 00:31:03.280 --> 00:31:05.280 But, yeah. 00:31:05.280 --> 00:31:07.090 So, you know, so what we want 00:31:07.090 --> 00:31:08.720 to do is have a bunch of, you 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.280 know, people that we love 00:31:10.280 --> 00:31:11.280 working with, 00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:14.280 you know, who do great stuff. 00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:15.740 Your pod squad is the beginning 00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:16.280 of that. 00:31:16.280 --> 00:31:18.710 Well, that's something else 00:31:18.710 --> 00:31:21.230 that we've talked about is that 00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:23.020 in the way -- you know, in what 00:31:23.020 --> 00:31:23.280 we're doing, 00:31:23.280 --> 00:31:25.700 and particularly with this, 00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:28.010 with podcasting, there is no 00:31:28.010 --> 00:31:30.280 lock-in competitive advantage 00:31:30.280 --> 00:31:33.280 that can really be created. 00:31:33.280 --> 00:31:35.280 It just doesn't work. 00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:37.550 And so what appeals to me, I 00:31:37.550 --> 00:31:39.610 think, an incredible amount is 00:31:39.610 --> 00:31:42.050 that we really can only compete 00:31:42.050 --> 00:31:43.280 on fucking quality. 00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:44.610 Quality and quality and speed 00:31:44.610 --> 00:31:46.930 and agility, but not on lock-in 00:31:46.930 --> 00:31:47.280 . 00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:48.160 And that is, you know, I love 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:48.280 -- 00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:49.280 No lock-in. 00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:50.280 No lock-in. 00:31:50.280 --> 00:31:52.280 And we can cut anything off. 00:31:52.280 --> 00:31:54.280 And I fucking love that part. 00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:55.280 Yep. 00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.280 I mean, we're coming -- 00:31:56.280 --> 00:31:56.960 So, we're either good or we're 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.280 not good. 00:31:57.280 --> 00:31:58.250 You know, we're either number 00:31:58.250 --> 00:31:59.280 one or we're not number one. 00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:00.280 And just story. 00:32:00.280 --> 00:32:01.160 Because, you know, while we 00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:02.190 come from different backgrounds 00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:04.050 , the one thing we have in 00:32:04.050 --> 00:32:04.280 common 00:32:04.280 --> 00:32:06.920 is sort of an innate love of 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.280 the Internet and what it says, 00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:10.280 you know. 00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:11.470 It says, "Ask not what the 00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:12.770 Internet can do for you after 00:32:12.770 --> 00:32:14.280 you can do for the Internet." 00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:15.280 Right on. 00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:17.280 And, you know, we've got to -- 00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:20.120 like, everything that we do has 00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:22.280 to work at that level. 00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:24.410 On the other hand, as you know, 00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:26.460 I've asked you many times, "Why 00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:27.280 does this, an MTV, 00:32:27.280 --> 00:32:30.280 didn't have any competition?" 00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:33.290 And sometimes a company, a 00:32:33.290 --> 00:32:36.950 brand is so strong that, you 00:32:36.950 --> 00:32:39.280 know, you've got to figure that 00:32:39.280 --> 00:32:41.410 there were people who thought 00:32:41.410 --> 00:32:43.950 about launching a competitor to 00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:44.280 MTV. 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:45.870 And maybe it's just because MTV 00:32:45.870 --> 00:32:47.280 didn't lock anyone out. 00:32:47.280 --> 00:32:48.910 That basically the bands that 00:32:48.910 --> 00:32:50.340 wanted to participate could 00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:51.280 participate. 00:32:51.280 --> 00:32:52.280 Well, I don't know. 00:32:52.280 --> 00:32:55.450 And that -- well, that's really 00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.620 what did it, I think, is that I 00:32:57.620 --> 00:33:00.280 won my MTV campaign, which 00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:01.500 was done by the artists 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:02.280 themselves. 00:33:02.280 --> 00:33:04.040 The MTV routed around the 00:33:04.040 --> 00:33:06.360 record companies and all their 00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:08.280 approval bullshit and went 00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:08.280 straight 00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:10.290 to Sting and Madonna and said, 00:33:10.290 --> 00:33:11.280 "Yes. 00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:12.780 Do you remember the beginning 00:33:12.780 --> 00:33:13.280 of MTV? 00:33:13.280 --> 00:33:15.000 It was, you know, I want my MTV 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:15.280 . 00:33:15.280 --> 00:33:18.400 That was -- oh, yeah, that was 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:20.280 the campaign." 00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:21.280 You still there? 00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:22.280 Yeah, I'm here. 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:23.280 Okay. 00:33:23.280 --> 00:33:26.360 Yeah, so the "I Want My MTV" 00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:28.460 campaign was basically MTV 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:31.280 going backstage at concerts 00:33:31.280 --> 00:33:33.380 and events and, like, award 00:33:33.380 --> 00:33:35.580 shows and, you know, getting 00:33:35.580 --> 00:33:37.280 like a quote from Sting or 00:33:37.280 --> 00:33:37.280 Madonna 00:33:37.280 --> 00:33:38.950 or whatever and they'd make it, 00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:40.700 you know, say, "Please, could 00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:41.280 you say, 'I want my MTV?'" 00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:43.070 And then that just became like 00:33:43.070 --> 00:33:44.280 the whole slogan. 00:33:44.280 --> 00:33:45.320 And then everyone was saying, 00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:46.370 you know, then it became their 00:33:46.370 --> 00:33:47.280 marketing campaign. 00:33:47.280 --> 00:33:49.120 Call up your cable company and 00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:50.280 say, "I want my MTV." 00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:52.280 It clearly worked. 00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:55.090 I remember -- all I remember is 00:33:55.090 --> 00:33:57.280 the Dire Straits song. 00:33:57.280 --> 00:33:58.810 I was not an early adopter of 00:33:58.810 --> 00:33:59.280 MTV. 00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:02.280 You know, very, very rarely. 00:34:02.280 --> 00:34:04.260 I'm an early adopter, so I don 00:34:04.260 --> 00:34:06.280 't remember the early days. 00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:07.280 Okay. 00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:09.280 I remember it being there. 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.580 I don't remember the first time 00:34:10.580 --> 00:34:11.280 I heard of it. 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.280 Right. 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:13.280 Yeah. 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:14.690 But, you know, so there was a 00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:17.480 lot to it, but there's some big 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.280 differences. 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:20.930 Making a music video then, 00:34:20.930 --> 00:34:22.650 which no one really knew what 00:34:22.650 --> 00:34:23.280 it was. 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.270 It was like, you know, you had 00:34:25.270 --> 00:34:27.280 to have a director kind of do, 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.280 you know, and some was video, 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:30.930 but some was still film of, you 00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:32.280 know, you performing. 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:33.860 It was like it wasn't quite 00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:35.570 easy for anyone to just go make 00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:36.280 a video. 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.280 No, we're in a different place. 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.400 Yeah, they started to cost a 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:40.280 shitload of money. 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:41.990 But you were doing pirate radio 00:34:41.990 --> 00:34:43.280 before MTV, right? 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.280 Yeah. 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.370 So how did you feel about the 00:34:46.370 --> 00:34:47.760 fact that the cost of 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:50.280 production for MTV was at least 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:50.280 hundreds 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:51.880 of thousands of dollars, at 00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:53.280 millions of dollars? 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.280 How did I feel about it? 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:56.280 Yeah, I don't know. 00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.040 I mean, it didn't sit well with 00:34:58.040 --> 00:34:58.280 you. 00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:00.280 It was always for the rich, you 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.130 know, the only people with a 00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:03.280 lot of money. 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:03.950 We were doing something 00:35:03.950 --> 00:35:04.280 different. 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.280 It's not really comparable. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.280 It's not really comparable. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:10.650 Because, you know, now the 00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:11.910 tools are all out there and 00:35:11.910 --> 00:35:13.610 everyone can make stuff, you 00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:14.280 know, 00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.470 but something similar is kind 00:35:16.470 --> 00:35:19.180 of happening in reverse because 00:35:19.180 --> 00:35:21.280 , you know, I'm getting from 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:22.970 the listeners, from source code 00:35:22.970 --> 00:35:24.470 listeners who eventually all go 00:35:24.470 --> 00:35:25.280 on to create, some of them 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.530 don't go on to do their own 00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:27.280 podcasts. 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.890 They're starting to create 00:35:28.890 --> 00:35:30.680 stuff and be creative and make 00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:31.280 promos. 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.550 It's kind of an organic thing 00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:35.280 that's happening. 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.280 And it's growing. 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:37.960 It's kind of like a raft and 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:39.800 everyone's like, we're all kind 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.280 of like hooking our dingies 00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:43.280 together. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.280 It really is sweet. 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:46.830 I really got to stop smoking 00:35:46.830 --> 00:35:48.120 dope when we have these 00:35:48.120 --> 00:35:49.280 conversations. 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:50.280 Really? 00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.050 Yeah, let's be clear about that 00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:52.280 . 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.470 I was in Vancouver a few weeks 00:35:54.470 --> 00:35:56.280 ago at a blog dinner. 00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.470 They had a dinner there in my 00:35:58.470 --> 00:35:59.280 honor. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.980 And they were going, they 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:02.620 pointed out to me, we were 00:36:02.620 --> 00:36:03.910 walking down Kiffin in the 00:36:03.910 --> 00:36:04.280 street. 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:06.050 They said, there's Vancouver's 00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:07.460 hash bars, you know, like 00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:08.280 Amsterdam. 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.280 I said, oh, that's nice. 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:11.280 They said, do you want to go? 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.280 I said, no, I don't see that. 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.280 And they said, really? 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:16.570 We thought you were doing that 00:36:16.570 --> 00:36:17.280 all the time. 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.740 And I said, well, that's 00:36:19.740 --> 00:36:22.280 somebody else doing it. 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:23.330 Yeah, but it's like, you're 00:36:23.330 --> 00:36:24.280 kind of like Patricia. 00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:26.280 You guys are naturally stoned. 00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:27.650 You're at a certain level all 00:36:27.650 --> 00:36:28.280 the time. 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:29.280 No, I know. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:30.140 And I think it's something, 00:36:30.140 --> 00:36:30.810 maybe because you're almost 00:36:30.810 --> 00:36:32.460 similar age, you know, maybe it 00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:33.280 's just something that happens. 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:34.640 Well, it's all that THC, you 00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:36.180 know, doesn't flush out of your 00:36:36.180 --> 00:36:37.280 system after a while. 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.890 He was also a child of the 60s, 00:36:39.890 --> 00:36:41.280 believe you me. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.190 Well, I'm not quite a child of 00:36:43.190 --> 00:36:44.280 the 60s. 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.580 You know, when I go through the 00:36:45.580 --> 00:36:47.640 oldies racks, I tend to end up 00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.770 in the 70s, not to see the 00:36:49.770 --> 00:36:50.280 disco shit. 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.450 And it was a little depressing, 00:36:52.450 --> 00:36:53.280 actually. 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:54.670 I kind of wish I was from the 00:36:54.670 --> 00:36:55.280 60s. 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.800 But, you know, on the other 00:36:57.800 --> 00:36:59.660 hand, I missed the draft, which 00:36:59.660 --> 00:37:01.280 I thought was pretty cool. 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.280 Yeah, life is nice. 00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:04.280 Yeah. 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.280 So there we go. 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:07.390 So I'm in the band with, we'll 00:37:07.390 --> 00:37:08.280 figure that one out. 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.260 So we've sort of like covered 00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:12.430 all the four different sides of 00:37:12.430 --> 00:37:14.810 the pool, you know, the pool 00:37:14.810 --> 00:37:15.280 puzzle. 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.800 And I guess, overall, we'd like 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.280 to work with people like that. 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.330 Yeah, and there's something 00:37:22.330 --> 00:37:23.760 else there, which is kind of 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.280 like an X factor, 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.820 which Tony Kong from WGBH, 00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.810 Morning Stories podcast, he 00:37:29.810 --> 00:37:34.280 calls it civility. 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.150 He says there's something going 00:37:36.150 --> 00:37:37.650 on that goes beyond these 00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:39.280 podcasts and the shows. 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.930 And of course, it's similar to 00:37:40.930 --> 00:37:42.530 what happens on web logs, only 00:37:42.530 --> 00:37:43.740 it has a whole different 00:37:43.740 --> 00:37:44.280 dimension, 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.710 where people are, you know, 00:37:46.710 --> 00:37:48.740 there's civility being 00:37:48.740 --> 00:37:50.980 maintained and created amongst 00:37:50.980 --> 00:37:52.280 podcasters. 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:53.280 Yeah. 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.450 And I'm not very good at 00:37:55.450 --> 00:37:58.280 explaining it, but he is. 00:37:58.280 --> 00:37:59.630 Well, I'll give you a good 00:37:59.630 --> 00:38:00.280 example. 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:01.960 And he had that guy, I don't 00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.430 remember his name, the 00:38:03.430 --> 00:38:05.660 production manager from Morning 00:38:05.660 --> 00:38:06.280 Stories, 00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.740 who had lost, I guess, the 00:38:08.740 --> 00:38:11.590 feeling in one side of his body 00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:13.280 had lost all of that. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.030 And had never told the story to 00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:16.280 anybody but Tony. 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:17.280 Right. 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.030 He goes on to, and he explained 00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:22.590 that it actually is a problem 00:38:22.590 --> 00:38:23.280 for him, 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.090 because it isn't something that 00:38:25.090 --> 00:38:26.950 you get to talk about the first 00:38:26.950 --> 00:38:27.280 time you meet somebody, 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.280 or even the second or third. 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.130 And usually you go out to beers 00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:33.190 with them, you know, a few 00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:34.280 times, and then, you know, 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:35.590 maybe you feel comfortable 00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:36.280 explaining it. 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.770 But he still, like, he could 00:38:38.770 --> 00:38:40.860 not, when he shook somebody's 00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:42.280 hand, he had a lot of trouble 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.280 letting go. 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.280 Right, right, right. 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:46.180 And that would sort of like 00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:48.280 freak people out sometimes. 00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:50.290 And so now he felt like this 00:38:50.290 --> 00:38:52.750 was a safe environment, and he 00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:54.620 could tell his story, and now 00:38:54.620 --> 00:38:55.280 basically, 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.340 you know, and I understood what 00:38:57.340 --> 00:38:59.570 he was doing, because in blogs 00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:01.280 I tend to tell my truth, 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.010 not everything, but the things 00:39:03.010 --> 00:39:04.290 that I really want to talk 00:39:04.290 --> 00:39:05.280 about publicly, 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.280 I generally enjoy as I do it. 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.640 And it isn't really a safe 00:39:09.640 --> 00:39:11.280 environment. 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:13.280 It feels safe in a minute. 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:15.700 But they've done some really 00:39:15.700 --> 00:39:18.280 elegant work there at WGBH. 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.280 Indeed, yeah, really. 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.260 Yeah, and I had a meeting 00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:25.650 yesterday with Seattle Times 00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:27.620 people, and had the same 00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:28.280 feeling. 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.030 You know, the nice thing about 00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:31.680 this one is that there isn't 00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:34.280 the animus that existed between 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:35.980 the print reporters and the 00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:37.280 bloggers. 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.040 The print reporters really 00:39:39.040 --> 00:39:41.280 weren't very nice, generally. 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:42.490 They worked, of course, 00:39:42.490 --> 00:39:43.870 exceptions, with the print 00:39:43.870 --> 00:39:45.580 reporters like Dan Gilmour, who 00:39:45.580 --> 00:39:47.280 became bloggers. 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.280 But for the most part, they 00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.280 were not very nice to us. 00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.040 The radio people are quite 00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:55.280 enthusiastic about podcasts, 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:58.280 and it's happening so quickly. 00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.450 I don't think there's enough 00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:01.990 time for any organized 00:40:01.990 --> 00:40:03.820 opposition to, well, at least 00:40:03.820 --> 00:40:04.280 the help. 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:06.160 Yeah, well, and you're 00:40:06.160 --> 00:40:07.280 absolutely right. 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:08.400 Radio people have been on this 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:09.280 from the beginning. 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:10.900 And I remember telling you, "Sh 00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:12.280 it, man, look at this. 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:13.750 You're the guy that created the 00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:15.280 fucking product called Radio." 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.550 I mean, you knew this 10 years 00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:19.280 ago. 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:20.860 Well, what I used to say to 00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:22.810 people was they'd say, "Well, 00:40:22.810 --> 00:40:25.060 there's play music," and I said 00:40:25.060 --> 00:40:25.280 , "Yeah." 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:26.530 They said, "Well, you can't 00:40:26.530 --> 00:40:27.280 call it radio. 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:29.460 There's talk radio, too. Come 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:30.660 on. People talk on the radio, 00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:31.280 don't they?" 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.940 I mean, you know, I'm an 00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:35.280 asshole. 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:36.750 I should have seen this so much 00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:38.990 earlier, and I could have saved 00:40:38.990 --> 00:40:40.280 millions of dollars 00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.470 and countless hours of aggra 00:40:42.470 --> 00:40:44.280 vation leading up to-- 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:45.430 That's what I was trying to 00:40:45.430 --> 00:40:46.280 tell you, man. 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.280 No, I understand. 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.330 I saw you spend all this money 00:40:52.330 --> 00:40:54.050 on Jambi, and I kept looking at 00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:54.280 it. 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:55.690 I was like, "I'm trying to tell 00:40:55.690 --> 00:40:56.280 you now." 00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.000 I was like, "That's what I want 00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:58.280 . 00:40:58.280 --> 00:40:59.520 You have to have an office 00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:00.660 building full of production 00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:01.280 people." 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:02.630 And I was going, "Fuck, that's 00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:04.360 what I need. I need those 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:05.280 people." 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.940 I had the software then, and so 00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:10.280 it waits. 00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:11.660 What happens is we wait another 00:41:11.660 --> 00:41:13.280 10 years before it happens. 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:14.910 But now we're not going away, 00:41:14.910 --> 00:41:16.280 okay? You and I-- 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:18.280 It's only been 40 years. 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:19.840 We're going to have trouble, I 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:21.310 think, explaining to the 00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:22.280 business people 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:23.960 why we are being so particular 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:25.280 about how we do this. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:26.910 That's how they're going to see 00:41:26.910 --> 00:41:27.280 it. 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:28.440 They're going to see us as 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.860 being difficult and insisting 00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:31.280 on things that, you know, 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.900 "Oh, they're just being like, 00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:34.280 artistic or whatever." 00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:35.280 Correct. 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.280 Part of that is correct. 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.040 Well, I mean, it isn't worth 00:41:40.040 --> 00:41:41.280 doing if this just turns into 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:41.280 another 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.280 sitcom reality TV show. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:44.780 Sorry, I'm not willing to do 00:41:44.780 --> 00:41:45.280 that. 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:46.710 You can go get somebody else to 00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:47.280 do that. 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.280 I don't need to do that. 00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:49.030 I could actually be on the 00:41:49.030 --> 00:41:50.280 sitcom and make more money 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.280 doing less work. 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.830 Yeah, well, I couldn't. I'm not 00:41:53.830 --> 00:41:55.280 as pretty as you are. 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.100 No, I mean, you could totally 00:41:57.100 --> 00:41:58.280 be Archie Bunker. 00:41:58.280 --> 00:41:59.300 Okay, I could be Archie Bunker. 00:41:59.300 --> 00:42:00.280 Thank you. 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.280 I really want to do that. 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.950 That is what I've put in my 00:42:03.950 --> 00:42:05.280 plan for this year. 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.280 It's your exit strategy, Dave. 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.530 It's your career being Archie B 00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:11.280 unker. 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:12.910 Yeah, so they're going to see 00:42:12.910 --> 00:42:14.490 it as being difficult, but we 00:42:14.490 --> 00:42:15.280 've got to get that. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:16.650 We've got to get those, that 00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:17.900 building full of production 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:18.280 people. 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:20.280 We need to offer facilities. 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:21.970 We need to have people whose 00:42:21.970 --> 00:42:23.710 job it is to make sure that the 00:42:23.710 --> 00:42:25.280 bandwidth stays working. 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:26.280 Right. 00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:27.730 You know, I don't want to have 00:42:27.730 --> 00:42:29.280 to write every line of code. 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.280 I can't do it. 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.030 That's what we learned at User 00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:35.050 Land, basically, is that if I 00:42:35.050 --> 00:42:36.760 take on more and more and more 00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:37.280 responsibility, 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:39.480 I end up in the hospital with 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:41.280 my check practices. 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:42.760 I'm not going to be doing that 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:43.280 again. 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:44.280 That's a downer. 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:45.280 Not for business. 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.740 A real downer. That is not 00:42:46.740 --> 00:42:47.280 worth it. 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.630 Yeah, it was kind of a bummer, 00:42:48.630 --> 00:42:49.280 actually. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.280 A downer? 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.280 Yeah, that's all right. 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:53.840 It had it's silver lining, like 00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.280 they always do. 00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:56.280 Yeah. 00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.280 Yeah. 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.280 Anyway. 00:42:58.280 --> 00:42:59.900 So, yeah, all right. Well, we 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.280 'll get past that. 00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:02.750 Yeah, so you think we've 00:43:02.750 --> 00:43:04.280 covered enough for one, Tracy? 00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:05.750 Tell them when we've been 00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:06.280 talking. 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.280 Let me just check here. 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.280 About 40 minutes. 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:12.280 I think that's perfect. 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.200 I think it's perfect for the 00:43:14.200 --> 00:43:15.280 walk to end. 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.280 I think so, man. 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:18.730 You're going to play some music 00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:19.280 on here? 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:20.720 How about some of the civius b 00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:21.280 itties? 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:23.820 Oh, dude, I'm so in love with 00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:24.280 them. 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.280 Me too. See, it works, Adam. 00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.280 It fucking works. It works. 00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:29.280 And you know what? 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.280 They're selling CDs. 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:33.280 People are buying CDs. 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.280 I know. I was in your show. 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:38.830 It's like, it's, it's, it's, 00:43:38.830 --> 00:43:39.280 hey, that's the, 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:40.800 And they're, and you want them 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:41.280 something? 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.880 I got to say this, man, they're 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:44.280 fucking worth it. 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:45.280 Yeah. 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:46.530 They play beautiful music. They 00:43:46.530 --> 00:43:47.280 have a soul. 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.870 They're, you know, they're not 00:43:48.870 --> 00:43:51.280 like, they're accessible. 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:52.880 I feel like I go hang out and 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.280 drink a beer with them. 00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:55.280 We have a lot of fun. 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:56.410 Well, okay, so let's play some 00:43:56.410 --> 00:43:58.280 of the civius bitties on our 00:43:58.280 --> 00:43:58.280 way out. 00:43:58.280 --> 00:43:59.790 And we'll get the fuck out of 00:43:59.790 --> 00:44:00.280 here. 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:02.280 Right on. See you later. 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:03.280 Okay. 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.280 All right. 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.280 Bye. Take care, Dave. 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:07.280 Okay. 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:11.770 It's not like he doesn't know 00:44:11.770 --> 00:44:16.700 just what to say to make you 00:44:16.700 --> 00:44:18.280 feel right. 00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.280 Stay up nights. 00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.280 Think of him all day. 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:29.480 Well, his song is true, but his 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:36.280 head keeps getting in the way. 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:46.930 No, it's not like he's got a 00:44:46.930 --> 00:44:49.280 nasty disposition. 00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:51.580 He wants to keep you locked up 00:44:51.580 --> 00:44:54.780 tight, knocked up right bare 00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:58.280 foot in the kitchen. 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:09.380 He's a hell of a boy, but only, 00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:15.280 only half of a man. 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:21.110 No, it's not like the boys are 00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:25.280 bad-aid, born on the wrong side 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.280 of town, under the wrong 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:32.280 roof, on the wrong day. 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:38.890 He's a hell of a boy, but only, 00:45:38.890 --> 00:45:43.280 only half of a man. 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:49.280 Half of a man. 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.850 Just what do you think you will 00:45:51.850 --> 00:45:54.280 get if you persist thinking 00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:57.280 this is the best you can do? 00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.650 Say no to your life, girl, or 00:45:59.650 --> 00:46:02.600 before you know it, your life's 00:46:02.600 --> 00:46:05.280 going to say no to you. 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:14.280 Easy come, easy go. 00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:24.280 Life's too short to live it so. 00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:28.620 No, it's not like it's more 00:46:28.620 --> 00:46:32.850 than you can stand to have that 00:46:32.850 --> 00:46:36.280 pretty boy sitting next to you, 00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:41.280 kissing you, holding your hand. 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:47.890 He's a hell of a boy, but only, 00:46:47.890 --> 00:46:52.280 only half of a man. 00:46:52.280 --> 00:47:07.940 He's a hell of a boy, but only, 00:47:07.940 --> 00:47:18.280 only half of a man.