[Music]
Roger!
Hey Dave Weiner, I'm in the
United Kingdom.
I hear that you're in the
United Kingdom.
I hear that you're in the
United Kingdom of Seattle.
It's raining here Adam.
Hey everybody, hey everybody.
And while I was waiting for you
to call, I recorded a morning
coffee note, if you could
believe that shit.
Are you kidding me?
In the 15 minutes it took for
me to get from Starbucks to
home?
Well I got news for you, it
wasn't 15 minutes.
It was actually too funny
because I put the recording
thing on.
I was going to record while I
was waiting for Adam to call me
.
And then it started getting
interesting.
Oh boy.
I'm sorry if I do say so myself
.
Well let me just tell everyone
that you're listening to Trade
Secrets.
It's been, I think, half of the
lifetime of podcasting since we
've done one of these days.
It's been a while man.
It's been a few weeks to the UK
at least.
I haven't done one shit, haven
't done one even the last couple
of weeks at the castle because
you were on the road and damn.
Yeah, well you know, whatever.
I think maybe the last one we
did was at BlagerCon.
BlagerCon, right?
That was the really long one
with Steve Gilmore?
Yeah.
Those were the days my friend,
my best friend, we could dance
forever and ever.
So I see you haven't posted the
morning coffee notes yet.
You've only recorded it?
I actually just did.
Oh okay.
While I was singing the song I
hit the save button.
Ah yeah, beautiful.
So how do you do server man?
Yeah I know you have a really
honking one.
Yeah and so let's see, here's
what I said in the morning
coffee notes.
Let me summarize, alright?
Okay.
First of all, let's talk about
everything.
Fuck it, let's not like…
Really let's go all out?
I'm all for that dude.
I'm so for that.
Well, you know let me just give
people a little bit of
background on that okay?
So yesterday you and I were
talking and then you said, I
said to you, you know, like you
're
so good at laying these
foundations in, you know, daily
source code.
It's like, you know, you hear
about things 20 times.
You surround it from all
different angles.
So why can't we do that with
this brainstorming we're doing?
And you said, "Well, some lies,
you know, I can't really, it
doesn't really work."
And I said it's like the same
way for me too with, you know,
scripting news.
I really don't like plotting
things in private.
Those of you that work well for
me.
It's very difficult.
For me, it's totally
association.
You know, when I'm doing, when
I'm doing, it was funny you
asked me yesterday, was that
really true?
Was it T?
Of course it was true.
Everything that happens on the
source code is true.
It's, or is real.
Let's put it that way, I don't
know if it's true.
It's real.
But, you know, when I'm holding
stuff back, it's like, for me
it's a broadcast of thing.
I'm sure for you, it's a
broadcast of thing for you as
well.
It's like you park this little,
that's the big problem Howard
Stern has, you know, and
a lot of real professional
quote unquote broadcasters is
you have to park all these
words and things
away in a corner so they don't
slip out like nipple, tits,
cock shit, puss, piss,
motherfucker,
you know, all that stuff.
And including, you know, the
stuff that we've been just kind
of working on together.
And I find it incredibly hard.
With me, it's like the snipples
and sneezes and honks and all
that shit like that.
People were giving me shit
because I was doing that all
along.
I don't mind that.
Well, what can I get to do?
Like, you know, becoming an
android, I guess.
Yes, you can become a real pod
caster.
Anyway, that was part one.
So I said, let's talk about
everything.
And then I drifted into sort of
like, I don't know how exactly
I got to this, but this idea
that, you know, well, we do
need the truth.
You mentioned this too.
I talked about that too.
And I saw yet two more articles
today that said Adam Curry who
invented podcasts.
Yeah, I hate that.
Adam, when we, you know, I love
you Adam and we've talked about
this at Infanitum.
It's not a problem I have with
you.
It's a problem I have with the
world.
And, you know, I know I'm going
to lose this one.
So, I mean, when you have a
problem with the world, you can
sort of like figure that the
world's going to win.
World one, day zero.
No, I think, no, I think it's
actually world two, day one.
I don't think it's zero.
I disagree with that.
But I understand what you're
saying.
Yeah, I mean, the thing is that
if we were to go back and look
over the sequence of events,
you know, I remember clearly
realizing that you were going
to be doing this every day.
And I felt a little bit of
sinking feeling that I knew
that, you know, you were so
much
like more professional at this
than I am.
But then again, we both know,
okay, that the sort of rough
ness and amateurishness of it,
the mature dishness of these
things is actually very
important.
It's the sort of signal of
authority, but it's not
something that's manufactured.
So, like when we got the email
today from Ron Bloom, that Ron
is, we're basically, we're
talking about starting a
company with a podcast.
There you go.
We said it.
Thank you.
We're more than talking about
it.
Yeah.
And we've been doing this for
quite a while.
And now that Adam moved to, you
know, got his move done, you
know, basically it's sort
of time to get serious about
this.
Yeah.
You know, Ron said that, well,
we're going to do, Ron is a
great business guy and a very
interesting sort of third
member of the team.
But, you know, he said, look,
that it's going to be like TV
and stuff like that.
No, it's not going to be like
TV at all.
I mean, basically, you know,
whatever, to whatever extent
there is sort of a pyramid
to what we're doing, I want to
knock it down, you know.
I want to flatten it out.
I want to create a medium, not
an age set, you know, not a
dominance.
I don't mind if people look to
us for leadership, but, and I
certainly want to make money.
I'm tired of giving things away
and not making any money on it.
But that sort of dominance that
comes from your sitting there
watching and we're on
the other end talking to
bullshit.
I don't want to do it, you know
, right?
We're in anything that way.
No.
So, okay.
But you were going to get to
another point, which I thought
was important.
Don't gloss over that that
about the articles.
Yeah.
Well, we see we're coexisting
with the old media, right?
The old media is what we grew
up with in the 20th century.
I was a part of it in the 20th
century.
Absolutely.
You were a very important part
of it, actually.
And that was all built around a
centralized structure.
There was no way of avoiding it
.
I mean, that was what we were
pioneering in the 20th century,
was this idea that, you
know, that you could distribute
things on a massive level.
But in the technology in the 20
th century, the only way to do
that is by massively
centralizing.
And now in the 21st century, we
can distribute on a massive
level without
centralizing.
And, you know, it's like,
Seattle wires up next year and
has Wi-Fi all over it's
downtown.
Is that going to be free for
everyone?
Is that going to be a total
service for the community?
I don't know.
No, it's not going to be free.
But, you know, some places it
will be free and eventually I
think you'll let me know,
is your cell phone free?
I mean, you know.
No, no, okay, good point.
Good point.
Right.
But when that happens, now all
of a sudden, you know, you're
not limited to the radio
dial for your spectrum.
You know, you can have as many
stations as there are, you know
, IP addresses.
Oh, I love that.
As many stations as there are
IP addresses.
Actually, it's better than that
.
It's as many as there are
domain names.
Yeah.
Because you could have multiple
domain names for IP addresses.
For IP addresses, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So, it's like the spectrum
issue just went away, you know,
or it's about to go away.
And so now the question is just
, what happened with personal
computers?
You know, what happened with
personal computers before that?
And this I remember very well,
you know, because I learned how
to program in the days before
a person's computer.
And in those days, the human
being's time was considered
disposable and the computer's
time was considered precious.
And once the PC came out, it
was all flipped around.
And now all of a sudden, you
know, it's the young, it was
the, you know, computers became
a free good.
And people became inexpensive.
And the same thing's happening
here is that, you know, I have,
if I have an hour a day
for listening to podcasts, well
, you know, that means that
there's a tremendous limit
on what I can listen to.
Right.
It used to be, it used to be
that I'd flip the dial.
There were three public radio
stations in Seattle, which is a
lot.
Okay.
That's a lot.
The chance is that any of them
had anything I was interested
in listening to on any given
moment was nil.
It never happened.
So, you know, you just flip
that switch.
And so, you know, can you have
a company, a media company that
's sort of camped out at
that, you know, intersection?
The answer is if we're smart
about it, you can have an
incredible media company.
Right.
Well, and that would be the
media company for the next
century.
Yeah.
21st century media.
21st century.
For this century.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, we're not going to get
grandiose and fifths for the
third millennium.
I mean, that would be a little
bit, you know, that would sort
of like be third right here.
Well, that would be like we'd
have to live a real long time.
I'm not saying I'm living that
long.
Fuck now, because, you know, we
'll be old and cranky motherfuck
ers if we live that long.
Fuck that shit.
I'm already there.
It's so funny.
The other thing I talked about,
it's amazing how you segwayed
perfectly into it.
I mean, I'm not even though.
I talked about a phone
conversation yesterday with
Dave Jacobs.
How was Dave Jacobs?
Well, I'm about to tell you.
The amazing thing about where
Dave was at is that, you know,
I've known him for, I guess,
about over 15 years.
And for 10 of those 15 years, I
've known that he had this
disease that basically was a
death
sex.
And, and of course, all the
time I've known him, he's known
that.
And talking to him yesterday,
it became clear that something
fundamentally had changed.
And, you know, I'm glad that
that's the case.
And it was an amazing
experience, you know.
I just, I was blown away after
I cried.
I really did.
It was like, he did too.
It was like, what a fucking
relief.
You know, I said, what I said,
they got us both going with
shit.
I was getting burned out of
this stuff and it wasn't even
happening to me.
And it's like, wow, oh, there
it is.
It's like, we're going to get
over it.
You know, I mean, he still has
challenges, but we all have
challenges.
And he got his life back.
And so people think that there
's like the same list of life
that nothing ever changes.
You know, well, this changed.
Somebody's life changed here.
And a lot of other lives that
were sort of connected up to
that.
A change with it, of course.
Right.
Absolutely.
Well, it always brings me back
to the one thing that I've
repeated many, many times that
either you said or wrote.
I think you probably wrote it
somewhere.
Life is not a waltz.
It's a wild jungle dance and
shit happens when people change
.
And I think you said shit
happens again.
No, I didn't say that.
The piece is "Programmers" and
it was written in 1997.
And it's probably one of the
best pieces if I could say so
myself.
It was good piece.
It sort of wrote itself.
Yeah.
I mean, I wanted to tell a
friend of mine who had a lot of
anger.
I really thought her anger was
beautiful.
And I meant she shouldn't worry
about me dodging it.
You know, it's like, it's
because people do put all these
judgments on certain things.
The fact is that if anger is
expressed safely, it can be a
good thing.
It's a good thing.
It can be a good thing.
Incredibly beautiful.
A lot of creativity comes from
anger.
A lot of movement comes from
anger, you know, as long as you
do it safely.
And then, you know, the thing
is that you just, you just can
't predict what's coming next.
And that's the thing is you
trick yourself into believing
you can know.
But if you actually go back and
look at your life and see how
things played out, you realize
that you're in good health.
Oh yeah, God, you have no
fucking clue.
And everything you think that
'll happen is always happens
backwards.
Yeah.
Like, did you know your mom was
going to get cancer?
No.
I mean, that's like, and, you
know, and now it looks like, I
mean, shit, the operation
is going to be on the 23rd.
Wow.
I didn't even think Christmas
was going to change.
And it is.
Where is that happening?
In Holland in New York.
I'm going over, obviously.
Yeah.
So yeah, 22nd, she goes in 23rd
is the operation.
They expect her to be in the
hospital for an average of 10
days is what is what they think
it takes, but she's strong, man
.
She's so fucking strong.
Yeah.
So, but yeah, I mean, yeah,
exactly.
Who the fuck knows what's going
to happen?
You can't play it on stuff like
that.
No.
So anyway, so all of this is a
big round loop to come back to
the fact that we want to feel
good about ourselves and
talking about what we're doing.
Yeah.
Well, sure.
Yeah.
I forgot how I got into the big
Jenkins thing, but it was
important for me to mention it.
Yeah.
Well, you said let's not talk
about the third millennium.
We'll let other people worry
about that.
Let's just worry about the
beginning of the 21st century.
About the current one.
We're here.
We're here now.
We could be something about it.
Yeah.
But as we're thinking about
names and stuff like that, it's
funny because, yes, and I knew
that you had written this and I
actually, I went looking for it
and it was hard to find
because I didn't, I couldn't
remember if it was titled How
to Name a Company or how to
name, and anyway, it was like
how to name a product.
I knew you had written these
awesome guidelines which I've
used several times before and
then today you fucking link to
it after I spent at least 20
minutes trying to find it
yesterday.
You didn't let me know.
I know how to find this.
Oh, I know, but the whole point
was I wanted to find that
myself.
Oh, well, okay.
Then you couldn't ask me
anything.
No.
Because it's like if I couldn't
, really, really couldn't find
it, then I would have asked you
,
of course, but I felt I could
find it.
Why don't we go over what the
four people we talked about
naming things because one of
the things that I believe is
that before you even talk about
, think about naming, you've
got to figure out first, what
are you doing?
Second of all, what do you want
to confede people with that
name?
How do you want them to think
about you?
It's like how did you come up
with the power of pure
intellect?
I'm not asking you rhetorical.
I'm not asking you to answer
that rhetorical question.
Right.
I'm not asking you to tell how
you came up with it.
Let me do this again.
It's like sort of like you've
heard it and you thought it
sounded interesting and you
decided to play it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And then you said, "Oh, let's
try that again."
And it worked the second time
in the third time.
And then everybody, you found
yourself saying that and then,
"Boy."
I think I was there when that
first came up.
When the boy, yeah, boy, boy,
boy.
I had the next girlfriend of
mine on a trade secret.
That's right, that's right,
that's right.
You never saw the light of day.
Immediately.
That's right.
Well, no, like three boings of
that made it on the end.
The rest was all destroyed and
a horrible system crashed.
I think it actually did make it
on the air.
I think Steve Gilmore commented
on it.
He couldn't play it on the Gil
more gang because of who it was
about.
International licensing issues.
Yeah, something like that.
And all right, so what was I
saying?
First, we need to know what we
're doing.
Then what we want to convey.
And then we can talk about hate
.
So first, what we're doing is
podcasting.
Right on.
And what do we care about with
podcasting?
Well, we need good development
tools.
We need aggregators.
We need sort of reading tools.
And we need great fucking shows
.
We need great shows and we need
a fourth thing, which is...
All our money in a brown paper
bag and 24-hour day limo
service?
Well, that goes without saying.
And bandwidth.
Bandwidth, baby, yeah.
Yeah, bandwidth is...
In blogging, bandwidth wasn't
an issue in podcasting
bandwidth.
Yeah.
And so, okay, we can't do
everything.
Right?
I think what we've learned in
the last few weeks,
we've learned where we thought
we could depend on the
community
to do the aggregators that we
can't depend on the community
to do the aggregators.
Now, let's just clarify,
because I don't think everyone
understands,
when we say aggregators, we're
basically talking about iPoders
in the podcasting sense.
So, I think...
You basically stayed out of iP
oders.
Once you finished doing your
work there, it was sort of like
I was watching from a distance.
Watching the mail list to see
what was going on.
Things seemed to be going
smoothly.
And I didn't see any reason at
all to get involved,
because people seem generally
to be happy with what was going
on there.
They don't fix it, right?
But then there's sort of famous
whole battles, and it really
was a battle
over whether or not we would
break the RSS 2.0 stack.
I don't consider that to be a
subjective discussion, and I
don't want to discuss it.
I don't think it...
Yeah, I agree.
It's like...
And the horrible thing about
that is that there was a week,
a whole week of off-list email
conversation going on,
which I think I know you and I
got real uncomfortable with all
that.
It was like all of a sudden
there was a little...
Yeah, go ahead.
I mean, that part you did.
I mean, you did a beautiful job
with starting iPoders community
off,
and then there are new maintain
ers of that stuff.
And what they need to do is
they need to adopt a sort of
helpful point of view.
It's like, we're here to help,
and users and developers party
together.
And that doesn't include
developers trying to be fasc
ists with the user, you know?
[laughter]
I mean, I said at one point to
one of these guys,
"Jay, you might want to just
cut out a little bit of slack,"
because basically, you've got a
really popular podcast that
wears your up sign
and be in piffy with the guy.
And unfortunately, developers
are like, they don't get that.
A lot of them don't get it.
And when you find one that sort
of says, "Look, I'm here to
serve the users.
That's why I'm doing this.
And I'm not going to bring any
of my own bullshit into this."
Then we're happy.
And if we can get there without
having to put into this, right?
Right.
Then we'll stay out of it.
Because frankly, every day I
hear about another iPoder and
another sort of group of people
.
I mean, even the VCs are
starting investing this show.
Oh, of course.
I mean, this, and I think that
's -- you and I both said, "Hey,
look,
here's something that finally
we're getting recognition for
creating,
something that we did create,
which is based upon an
incredible body of work that
you did,
which has just -- and that's
had a whole fucking life of its
own on and off list.
Let's just call it that.
And lots of people have made
money off of web logs and RSS.
And I think that guys like you
and I, we need to at some point
--
and it doesn't have to be every
single time, but at some point
--
I think you've said this, we've
got to make a little bit of
money so we can go on and help
with the next thing.
We've got to capitalize on this
or we'll never be able to help
with the next step.
I think that it's even -- yes,
I totally fully agree with that
.
And it's even more than that,
though.
I think that in order to be
successful at this idea of
starting something like this
and seeing it through,
you have to make sure that the
iPodder thing, which is a key
element of the whole system,
is on a solid foundation and
where it doesn't, like, split
apart.
The thing you don't want to
have to deal with is to have to
use one program to listen to
one podcast
and another program to
subscribe to another one.
In other words, like, if you
had to -- it's sort of like, if
you had to use --
you could only read -- The New
York Times could only be read
on the Macintosh
and The Wall Street Journal
could only be read on the PC.
Well, that would suck, right?
Or you don't want to go there.
Or you could even --
Yeah, you could even --
Or you could even use a watch
on the PC.
And that's where we got to.
That's where this discussion
got to.
So this is sort of a message to
the iPodder developer community
that we are not without options
here, okay?
It's still really early.
If you're feeling like you've
got a sizable piece of the
install base, I swear to God,
this is a tiny fraction of what
's coming.
This is fucking nothing
compared to what's out there.
Right. And so let's get it
together and let's get a real
sense of developer and user
reporting together.
If not, developers party
together and forget all about
users.
Not that.
And I got to tell you, I feel a
little -- just a little bit
responsible for some of that
because what happened with the
iPodder dev list is it exploded
.
And also kind of at a time when
I was moving and, you know,
I didn't really have a lot of
time to focus on the, you know,
hundreds of messages
that seemed to appear daily.
No, you're not responsible.
Well, yeah, but I couldn't
control it.
I could not add anything.
If you tried to control it, you
would have learned the same
thing that you couldn't control
it
and it would have been a mess.
Okay, good.
Yeah, I mean, you know, it just
got to the point where, you
know, it just had to happen.
I mean, that's just what
happened.
Yeah.
And you can't take
responsibility for it.
It's just something you're
responsible for.
It's just -- I mean, hasn't,
like, you know, become a big
problem yet.
And so that's number one.
Number two is there's all kinds
of other development, content
development tools.
It's a very rich area.
And our little company or big
company, if we hope it becomes
a big one, right, isn't going
to be in every aspect of that
fight.
Any stretch of the United
Nations, right?
And so there's all kinds of
stuff that you use that we can
be in a position to endorse.
We can work with people.
By the way, don't forget that
there's also iPods and equival
ents, you know.
There's like, what is the ideal
iPod for podcasting look like?
Well, I can tell you for sure,
it's not the thing that Apple
should say.
Nope.
That's not ideal.
Not even the one that you have
the U2 name on it.
That doesn't even come close
either.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I'm afraid that this is the
same thing.
Unless it has a fucking message
on it.
Yeah, if you have a cell phone
on it, that might be a
different story.
You get a bit -- no, I'm only
kidding.
No, it needs to have Wi-Fi
built into it.
It needs to have aggregators.
The iPod needs to run on by
itself.
Right?
It needs to constantly do it
for a Wi-Fi signal to see if it
can find a police cell.
Just as a quick sidebar, we're
recording this show on my cell
phone.
Just want you to know that --
Yeah, I'm kidding.
It's fucking amazing.
This thing -- I knew it did MP3
s.
As in it can record them.
It can play them.
But it's actually -- there's a
button on it that lets you
record your conversation.
It's not -- it has, I think, a
reasonably mature OS in there.
It should not be a big stretch
for this thing to have iPod or
functionality.
And with GPRS, which is to step
up from cell phones and way
below Wi-Fi.
But it has its built-in network
.
I mean, this is --
What brand of phone is that?
This is a Sony Ericsson.
It's the 700i.
And I didn't really think much
of it.
It's just there was like one
that I thought looked nice when
I picked it up from Virgin
Mobile.
But it had this functionality
in there.
And it's outrageous.
I gotta tell you something.
When you just said, I didn't
think very much of it.
It had a little bit of a liver-
pull thing going on there.
It might have happened to me.
Yeah, you started flipping.
You asked me to tell you if you
were flipping into it, right?
Oh my God.
It's happening already.
It's getting assimilated.
I think something to the UK
whole.
Now, you get compensated.
You get overcompensated.
They're becoming harms.
No, but I can become the
database boy.
We have many people from India,
Pakistan here in the UK.
And when we have electricity,
we'll be even faster.
All right.
So let me just run through some
more of iPod features.
That phone is great.
And that's, you know, okay.
There's like this matrix of
features.
It's a confusing situation.
But what do we need?
And by the way, we ought to
also be--
I mean, so like we need better
user interface.
We need a button that we can
press while driving.
Yeah, actually, yeah.
Big red one, yeah.
Yeah.
And then, okay, we need a ROM-
able iPod or we need something
that works in this mode.
So the UI has to collapse down
to just a four-button UI.
Sure, it dots.
But what about when you're not
docked?
And how can we keep it so that
if you're doing this while you
're driving,
you don't know if you're
driving off the road?
This is a big deal, right?
Saving the lives of our iPoders
.
We really care about that.
And in fact, I have to say that
--
and I've been a cell phone guy
for a long time.
Some cell phone interfaces are
actually starting to make sense
because they've been through 8,
000 iterations,
unlike the iPod and MP3 players
.
Yeah.
And they always knew from day
one, hey, we've got people in
the car.
They're mobile.
So they were thinking much more
about the mobile aspect.
And so, yeah, just explain the
ROM-able part because I know
what you mean.
But I don't know if all the
listeners know what you mean.
Well, you know, I mean, ROM-
able stands for able to put into
read-only memory,
which is really not true.
It doesn't need to be
specifically legally read-only
memory.
But the idea is that you're
taking it out of a rich
environment,
like a laptop or a PC, desktop,
and putting it onto one of
these devices with a really
limited UI.
So you're thinking, OK, take a
big piece of software.
Like an iPod has got a lot of
little dials and things
that you can turn and things,
whatever.
It should.
So you can't do that on an iPod
.
You just don't have that much
UI to play with.
This is a whole other UI
problem.
And so you could say that our
company wants to, at the very
least,
work with people who are
creating products.
And, you know, either they're
in competition with the iPod,
basically,
or should Apple decide this is
an interesting area
and we'd be happy to work with
Apple too.
Or maybe we want to create the
product ourselves.
I would do that with a lot of
reluctance, but still, not
ruling out,
because there are OEM-type
situations that one can do.
And branding and stuff like
that can really appear
that we're creating our own
product and the fact we're not.
Well, we're just doing the
design because we understand
this area as users.
And we understand it as users
who really, really care about
this stuff.
So that's another one.
Now, another part of the
content development side is,
you know,
we've been, like, seeing a lot
of it you've been driving has
been with OPML.
And there we can do a lot. And
we can do it quickly.
And we will do a lot and we
will do it quickly,
because of the open source
release of Frontier,
which includes a really
excellent outliner.
And, you know, I would think
that maybe even before the end
of the year,
we will have an OPML tool that
works on both Windows and Mac
intosh.
And on my cell phone.
And very, very -- pardon me?
And on my cell phone.
Probably not on your cell phone
.
Okay. I'm not -- I was dreaming
again.
I couldn't just say, "Oh, yeah,
I'm on your cell phone."
Of course.
Well, hey, that's a VC pitch.
That's a -- well, of course, we
'll have it on every cell phone.
That's for the -- that's a
venture capitalist pitch.
Well, of course, it will be on
every single cell phone all
over the -- over the universe.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
It'll be a -- I'm unfortunately
-- you have to put me -- leave
me at home on the day
to go to a Mac pitch, okay?
Because I'm very likely to do
what I've done in the past,
which is say, "Well, what do I
really need?"
[ Laughter ]
You want to leave me home that
day.
Okay. So what do we want to do?
Content development.
We listen to the listening side
, the aggregating side of things
.
The content now, right?
And this is something -- this
is where I think the real juice
is for us.
Yeah. I agree.
This is what I'm the most
excited about, really.
Yeah. I mean, we've got the
number one podcast now, I think
.
Not too many people have been
in dispute.
Well, as Tony Khan would say, I
'm the Ed Sullivan of podcasting
.
Exactly.
And I wear that badge with
pride.
And you do it really well.
And we love what you do.
And it seems to come naturally
to you.
It's sort of like where you
gravitate.
It's what you did it into.
Yeah, it's what I've done all
my life.
And out of that is going to
come a whole new music industry
.
Oh, man. That would be so
fucking cool.
Exactly.
And maybe partnerships with RIA
companies.
Yeah, of course.
We need to -- well, we --
Be part of this because we have
a very inclusive attitude about
these things.
We don't want -- it's not -- we
're not here to prove a point
with anybody in specific.
We just all we really want to
do is enjoy this new medium and
help develop it.
And because it's just like you
love it, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then other brand names.
I guess -- I don't know how
else to put it, but other brand
names from the 20th century,
you know, bring them into the
21st century.
And I think a lot of them will
carry over very, very nicely.
And some of them will come
kicking and screaming.
Yeah.
Well, the key to the spirit
part we can do without.
Yeah.
They can go work with our
competitors.
But --
But, yeah.
So, you know, so what we want
to do is have a bunch of, you
know, people that we love
working with,
you know, who do great stuff.
Your pod squad is the beginning
of that.
Well, that's something else
that we've talked about is that
in the way -- you know, in what
we're doing,
and particularly with this,
with podcasting, there is no
lock-in competitive advantage
that can really be created.
It just doesn't work.
And so what appeals to me, I
think, an incredible amount is
that we really can only compete
on fucking quality.
Quality and quality and speed
and agility, but not on lock-in
.
And that is, you know, I love
--
No lock-in.
And we can cut anything off.
And I fucking love that part.
Yep.
I mean, we're coming --
So, we're either good or we're
not good.
You know, we're either number
one or we're not number one.
And just story.
Because, you know, while we
come from different backgrounds
, the one thing we have in
common
is sort of an innate love of
the Internet and what it says,
you know.
It says, "Ask not what the
Internet can do for you after
you can do for the Internet."
Right on.
And, you know, we've got to --
like, everything that we do has
to work at that level.
On the other hand, as you know,
I've asked you many times, "Why
does this, an MTV,
didn't have any competition?"
And sometimes a company, a
brand is so strong that, you
know, you've got to figure that
there were people who thought
about launching a competitor to
MTV.
And maybe it's just because MTV
didn't lock anyone out.
That basically the bands that
wanted to participate could
participate.
Well, I don't know.
And that -- well, that's really
what did it, I think, is that I
won my MTV campaign, which
was done by the artists
themselves.
The MTV routed around the
record companies and all their
approval bullshit and went
straight
to Sting and Madonna and said,
"Yes.
Do you remember the beginning
of MTV?
It was, you know, I want my MTV
.
That was -- oh, yeah, that was
the campaign."
You still there?
Yeah, I'm here.
Okay.
Yeah, so the "I Want My MTV"
campaign was basically MTV
going backstage at concerts
and events and, like, award
shows and, you know, getting
like a quote from Sting or
Madonna
or whatever and they'd make it,
you know, say, "Please, could
you say, 'I want my MTV?'"
And then that just became like
the whole slogan.
And then everyone was saying,
you know, then it became their
marketing campaign.
Call up your cable company and
say, "I want my MTV."
It clearly worked.
I remember -- all I remember is
the Dire Straits song.
I was not an early adopter of
MTV.
You know, very, very rarely.
I'm an early adopter, so I don
't remember the early days.
Okay.
I remember it being there.
I don't remember the first time
I heard of it.
Right.
Yeah.
But, you know, so there was a
lot to it, but there's some big
differences.
Making a music video then,
which no one really knew what
it was.
It was like, you know, you had
to have a director kind of do,
you know, and some was video,
but some was still film of, you
know, you performing.
It was like it wasn't quite
easy for anyone to just go make
a video.
No, we're in a different place.
Yeah, they started to cost a
shitload of money.
But you were doing pirate radio
before MTV, right?
Yeah.
So how did you feel about the
fact that the cost of
production for MTV was at least
hundreds
of thousands of dollars, at
millions of dollars?
How did I feel about it?
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it didn't sit well with
you.
It was always for the rich, you
know, the only people with a
lot of money.
We were doing something
different.
It's not really comparable.
Because, you know, now the
tools are all out there and
everyone can make stuff, you
know,
but something similar is kind
of happening in reverse because
, you know, I'm getting from
the listeners, from source code
listeners who eventually all go
on to create, some of them
don't go on to do their own
podcasts.
They're starting to create
stuff and be creative and make
promos.
It's kind of an organic thing
that's happening.
And it's growing.
It's kind of like a raft and
everyone's like, we're all kind
of like hooking our dingies
together.
It really is sweet.
I really got to stop smoking
dope when we have these
conversations.
Really?
Yeah, let's be clear about that
.
I was in Vancouver a few weeks
ago at a blog dinner.
They had a dinner there in my
honor.
And they were going, they
pointed out to me, we were
walking down Kiffin in the
street.
They said, there's Vancouver's
hash bars, you know, like
Amsterdam.
I said, oh, that's nice.
They said, do you want to go?
I said, no, I don't see that.
And they said, really?
We thought you were doing that
all the time.
And I said, well, that's
somebody else doing it.
Yeah, but it's like, you're
kind of like Patricia.
You guys are naturally stoned.
You're at a certain level all
the time.
No, I know.
And I think it's something,
maybe because you're almost
similar age, you know, maybe it
's just something that happens.
Well, it's all that THC, you
know, doesn't flush out of your
system after a while.
He was also a child of the 60s,
believe you me.
Well, I'm not quite a child of
the 60s.
You know, when I go through the
oldies racks, I tend to end up
in the 70s, not to see the
disco shit.
And it was a little depressing,
actually.
I kind of wish I was from the
60s.
But, you know, on the other
hand, I missed the draft, which
I thought was pretty cool.
Yeah, life is nice.
Yeah.
So there we go.
So I'm in the band with, we'll
figure that one out.
So we've sort of like covered
all the four different sides of
the pool, you know, the pool
puzzle.
And I guess, overall, we'd like
to work with people like that.
Yeah, and there's something
else there, which is kind of
like an X factor,
which Tony Kong from WGBH,
Morning Stories podcast, he
calls it civility.
He says there's something going
on that goes beyond these
podcasts and the shows.
And of course, it's similar to
what happens on web logs, only
it has a whole different
dimension,
where people are, you know,
there's civility being
maintained and created amongst
podcasters.
Yeah.
And I'm not very good at
explaining it, but he is.
Well, I'll give you a good
example.
And he had that guy, I don't
remember his name, the
production manager from Morning
Stories,
who had lost, I guess, the
feeling in one side of his body
had lost all of that.
And had never told the story to
anybody but Tony.
Right.
He goes on to, and he explained
that it actually is a problem
for him,
because it isn't something that
you get to talk about the first
time you meet somebody,
or even the second or third.
And usually you go out to beers
with them, you know, a few
times, and then, you know,
maybe you feel comfortable
explaining it.
But he still, like, he could
not, when he shook somebody's
hand, he had a lot of trouble
letting go.
Right, right, right.
And that would sort of like
freak people out sometimes.
And so now he felt like this
was a safe environment, and he
could tell his story, and now
basically,
you know, and I understood what
he was doing, because in blogs
I tend to tell my truth,
not everything, but the things
that I really want to talk
about publicly,
I generally enjoy as I do it.
And it isn't really a safe
environment.
It feels safe in a minute.
But they've done some really
elegant work there at WGBH.
Indeed, yeah, really.
Yeah, and I had a meeting
yesterday with Seattle Times
people, and had the same
feeling.
You know, the nice thing about
this one is that there isn't
the animus that existed between
the print reporters and the
bloggers.
The print reporters really
weren't very nice, generally.
They worked, of course,
exceptions, with the print
reporters like Dan Gilmour, who
became bloggers.
But for the most part, they
were not very nice to us.
The radio people are quite
enthusiastic about podcasts,
and it's happening so quickly.
I don't think there's enough
time for any organized
opposition to, well, at least
the help.
Yeah, well, and you're
absolutely right.
Radio people have been on this
from the beginning.
And I remember telling you, "Sh
it, man, look at this.
You're the guy that created the
fucking product called Radio."
I mean, you knew this 10 years
ago.
Well, what I used to say to
people was they'd say, "Well,
there's play music," and I said
, "Yeah."
They said, "Well, you can't
call it radio.
There's talk radio, too. Come
on. People talk on the radio,
don't they?"
I mean, you know, I'm an
asshole.
I should have seen this so much
earlier, and I could have saved
millions of dollars
and countless hours of aggra
vation leading up to--
That's what I was trying to
tell you, man.
No, I understand.
I saw you spend all this money
on Jambi, and I kept looking at
it.
I was like, "I'm trying to tell
you now."
I was like, "That's what I want
.
You have to have an office
building full of production
people."
And I was going, "Fuck, that's
what I need. I need those
people."
I had the software then, and so
it waits.
What happens is we wait another
10 years before it happens.
But now we're not going away,
okay? You and I--
It's only been 40 years.
We're going to have trouble, I
think, explaining to the
business people
why we are being so particular
about how we do this.
That's how they're going to see
it.
They're going to see us as
being difficult and insisting
on things that, you know,
"Oh, they're just being like,
artistic or whatever."
Correct.
Part of that is correct.
Well, I mean, it isn't worth
doing if this just turns into
another
sitcom reality TV show.
Sorry, I'm not willing to do
that.
You can go get somebody else to
do that.
I don't need to do that.
I could actually be on the
sitcom and make more money
doing less work.
Yeah, well, I couldn't. I'm not
as pretty as you are.
No, I mean, you could totally
be Archie Bunker.
Okay, I could be Archie Bunker.
Thank you.
I really want to do that.
That is what I've put in my
plan for this year.
It's your exit strategy, Dave.
It's your career being Archie B
unker.
Yeah, so they're going to see
it as being difficult, but we
've got to get that.
We've got to get those, that
building full of production
people.
We need to offer facilities.
We need to have people whose
job it is to make sure that the
bandwidth stays working.
Right.
You know, I don't want to have
to write every line of code.
I can't do it.
That's what we learned at User
Land, basically, is that if I
take on more and more and more
responsibility,
I end up in the hospital with
my check practices.
I'm not going to be doing that
again.
That's a downer.
Not for business.
A real downer. That is not
worth it.
Yeah, it was kind of a bummer,
actually.
A downer?
Yeah, that's all right.
It had it's silver lining, like
they always do.
Yeah.
Anyway.
So, yeah, all right. Well, we
'll get past that.
Yeah, so you think we've
covered enough for one, Tracy?
Tell them when we've been
talking.
Let me just check here.
About 40 minutes.
I think that's perfect.
I think it's perfect for the
walk to end.
I think so, man.
You're going to play some music
on here?
How about some of the civius b
itties?
Oh, dude, I'm so in love with
them.
Me too. See, it works, Adam.
It fucking works. It works.
And you know what?
They're selling CDs.
People are buying CDs.
I know. I was in your show.
It's like, it's, it's, it's,
hey, that's the,
And they're, and you want them
something?
I got to say this, man, they're
fucking worth it.
Yeah.
They play beautiful music. They
have a soul.
They're, you know, they're not
like, they're accessible.
I feel like I go hang out and
drink a beer with them.
We have a lot of fun.
Well, okay, so let's play some
of the civius bitties on our
way out.
And we'll get the fuck out of
here.
Right on. See you later.
Okay.
All right.
Bye. Take care, Dave.
Okay.
It's not like he doesn't know
just what to say to make you
feel right.
Stay up nights.
Think of him all day.
Well, his song is true, but his
head keeps getting in the way.
No, it's not like he's got a
nasty disposition.
He wants to keep you locked up
tight, knocked up right bare
foot in the kitchen.
He's a hell of a boy, but only,
only half of a man.
No, it's not like the boys are
bad-aid, born on the wrong side
of town, under the wrong
roof, on the wrong day.
He's a hell of a boy, but only,
only half of a man.
Half of a man.
Just what do you think you will
get if you persist thinking
this is the best you can do?
Say no to your life, girl, or
before you know it, your life's
going to say no to you.
Easy come, easy go.
Life's too short to live it so.
No, it's not like it's more
than you can stand to have that
pretty boy sitting next to you,
kissing you, holding your hand.
He's a hell of a boy, but only,
only half of a man.
He's a hell of a boy, but only,
only half of a man.