WEBVTT

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 [Music]

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 Roger!

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 Hey Dave Weiner, I'm in the

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 United Kingdom.

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 I hear that you're in the

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 United Kingdom.

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 I hear that you're in the

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 United Kingdom of Seattle.

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 It's raining here Adam.

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 Hey everybody, hey everybody.

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 And while I was waiting for you

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 to call, I recorded a morning

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 coffee note, if you could

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 believe that shit.

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 Are you kidding me?

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 In the 15 minutes it took for

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 me to get from Starbucks to

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 home?

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 Well I got news for you, it

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 wasn't 15 minutes.

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 It was actually too funny

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 because I put the recording

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 thing on.

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 I was going to record while I

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 was waiting for Adam to call me

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.

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 And then it started getting

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 interesting.

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 Oh boy.

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 I'm sorry if I do say so myself

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.

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 Well let me just tell everyone

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 that you're listening to Trade

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 Secrets.

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 It's been, I think, half of the

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 lifetime of podcasting since we

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've done one of these days.

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 It's been a while man.

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 It's been a few weeks to the UK

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 at least.

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 I haven't done one shit, haven

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't done one even the last couple

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 of weeks at the castle because

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 you were on the road and damn.

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 Yeah, well you know, whatever.

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 I think maybe the last one we

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 did was at BlagerCon.

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 BlagerCon, right?

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 That was the really long one

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 with Steve Gilmore?

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 Yeah.

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 Those were the days my friend,

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 my best friend, we could dance

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 forever and ever.

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 So I see you haven't posted the

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 morning coffee notes yet.

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 You've only recorded it?

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 I actually just did.

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 Oh okay.

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 While I was singing the song I

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 hit the save button.

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 Ah yeah, beautiful.

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 So how do you do server man?

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 Yeah I know you have a really

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 honking one.

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 Yeah and so let's see, here's

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 what I said in the morning

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 coffee notes.

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 Let me summarize, alright?

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 Okay.

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 First of all, let's talk about

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 everything.

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 Fuck it, let's not like…

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 Really let's go all out?

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 I'm all for that dude.

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 I'm so for that.

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 Well, you know let me just give

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 people a little bit of

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 background on that okay?

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 So yesterday you and I were

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 talking and then you said, I

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 said to you, you know, like you

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're

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 so good at laying these

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 foundations in, you know, daily

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 source code.

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 It's like, you know, you hear

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 about things 20 times.

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 You surround it from all

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 different angles.

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 So why can't we do that with

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 this brainstorming we're doing?

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 And you said, "Well, some lies,

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 you know, I can't really, it

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 doesn't really work."

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 And I said it's like the same

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 way for me too with, you know,

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 scripting news.

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 I really don't like plotting

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 things in private.

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 Those of you that work well for

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 me.

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 It's very difficult.

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 For me, it's totally

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 association.

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 You know, when I'm doing, when

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 I'm doing, it was funny you

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 asked me yesterday, was that

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 really true?

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 Was it T?

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 Of course it was true.

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 Everything that happens on the

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 source code is true.

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 It's, or is real.

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 Let's put it that way, I don't

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 know if it's true.

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 It's real.

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 But, you know, when I'm holding

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 stuff back, it's like, for me

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 it's a broadcast of thing.

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 I'm sure for you, it's a

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 broadcast of thing for you as

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 well.

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 It's like you park this little,

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 that's the big problem Howard

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 Stern has, you know, and

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 a lot of real professional

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 quote unquote broadcasters is

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 you have to park all these

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 words and things

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 away in a corner so they don't

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 slip out like nipple, tits,

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 cock shit, puss, piss,

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 motherfucker,

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 you know, all that stuff.

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 And including, you know, the

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 stuff that we've been just kind

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 of working on together.

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 And I find it incredibly hard.

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 With me, it's like the snipples

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 and sneezes and honks and all

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 that shit like that.

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 People were giving me shit

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 because I was doing that all

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 along.

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 I don't mind that.

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 Well, what can I get to do?

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 Like, you know, becoming an

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 android, I guess.

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 Yes, you can become a real pod

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caster.

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 Anyway, that was part one.

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 So I said, let's talk about

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 everything.

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 And then I drifted into sort of

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 like, I don't know how exactly

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 I got to this, but this idea

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 that, you know, well, we do

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 need the truth.

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 You mentioned this too.

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 I talked about that too.

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 And I saw yet two more articles

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 today that said Adam Curry who

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 invented podcasts.

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 Yeah, I hate that.

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 Adam, when we, you know, I love

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 you Adam and we've talked about

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 this at Infanitum.

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 It's not a problem I have with

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 you.

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 It's a problem I have with the

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 world.

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 And, you know, I know I'm going

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 to lose this one.

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 So, I mean, when you have a

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 problem with the world, you can

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 sort of like figure that the

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 world's going to win.

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 World one, day zero.

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 No, I think, no, I think it's

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 actually world two, day one.

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 I don't think it's zero.

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 I disagree with that.

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 But I understand what you're

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 saying.

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 Yeah, I mean, the thing is that

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 if we were to go back and look

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 over the sequence of events,

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 you know, I remember clearly

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 realizing that you were going

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 to be doing this every day.

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 And I felt a little bit of

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 sinking feeling that I knew

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 that, you know, you were so

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 much

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 like more professional at this

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 than I am.

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 But then again, we both know,

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 okay, that the sort of rough

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ness and amateurishness of it,

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 the mature dishness of these

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 things is actually very

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 important.

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 It's the sort of signal of

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 authority, but it's not

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 something that's manufactured.

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 So, like when we got the email

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 today from Ron Bloom, that Ron

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 is, we're basically, we're

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 talking about starting a

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 company with a podcast.

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 There you go.

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 We said it.

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 Thank you.

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 We're more than talking about

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 it.

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 Yeah.

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 And we've been doing this for

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 quite a while.

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 And now that Adam moved to, you

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 know, got his move done, you

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 know, basically it's sort

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 of time to get serious about

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 this.

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 Yeah.

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 You know, Ron said that, well,

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 we're going to do, Ron is a

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 great business guy and a very

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 interesting sort of third

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 member of the team.

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 But, you know, he said, look,

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 that it's going to be like TV

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 and stuff like that.

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 No, it's not going to be like

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 TV at all.

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 I mean, basically, you know,

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 whatever, to whatever extent

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 there is sort of a pyramid

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 to what we're doing, I want to

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 knock it down, you know.

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 I want to flatten it out.

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 I want to create a medium, not

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 an age set, you know, not a

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 dominance.

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 I don't mind if people look to

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 us for leadership, but, and I

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 certainly want to make money.

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 I'm tired of giving things away

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 and not making any money on it.

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 But that sort of dominance that

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 comes from your sitting there

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 watching and we're on

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 the other end talking to

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 bullshit.

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 I don't want to do it, you know

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, right?

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 We're in anything that way.

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 No.

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 So, okay.

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 But you were going to get to

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 another point, which I thought

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 was important.

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 Don't gloss over that that

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 about the articles.

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 Yeah.

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 Well, we see we're coexisting

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 with the old media, right?

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 The old media is what we grew

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 up with in the 20th century.

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 I was a part of it in the 20th

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 century.

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 Absolutely.

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 You were a very important part

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 of it, actually.

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 And that was all built around a

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 centralized structure.

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 There was no way of avoiding it

00:07:03.130 --> 00:07:03.480
.

00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:04.730
 I mean, that was what we were

00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:06.510
 pioneering in the 20th century,

00:07:06.510 --> 00:07:08.480
 was this idea that, you

00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.070
 know, that you could distribute

00:07:10.070 --> 00:07:11.480
 things on a massive level.

00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.070
 But in the technology in the 20

00:07:13.070 --> 00:07:14.520
th century, the only way to do

00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:15.480
 that is by massively

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 centralizing.

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 And now in the 21st century, we

00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:20.040
 can distribute on a massive

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 level without

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 centralizing.

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 And, you know, it's like,

00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:25.910
 Seattle wires up next year and

00:07:25.910 --> 00:07:27.480
 has Wi-Fi all over it's

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 downtown.

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 Is that going to be free for

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 everyone?

00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:30.350
 Is that going to be a total

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 service for the community?

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 I don't know.

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 No, it's not going to be free.

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 But, you know, some places it

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 will be free and eventually I

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 think you'll let me know,

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 is your cell phone free?

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 I mean, you know.

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 No, no, okay, good point.

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 Good point.

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 Right.

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 But when that happens, now all

00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.480
 of a sudden, you know, you're

00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:50.480
 not limited to the radio

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 dial for your spectrum.

00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:52.900
 You know, you can have as many

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 stations as there are, you know

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, IP addresses.

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 Oh, I love that.

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 As many stations as there are

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 IP addresses.

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 Actually, it's better than that

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.

00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:02.760
 It's as many as there are

00:08:02.760 --> 00:08:03.480
 domain names.

00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:04.480
 Yeah.

00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:05.440
 Because you could have multiple

00:08:05.440 --> 00:08:06.480
 domain names for IP addresses.

00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:07.480
 For IP addresses, yeah.

00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:08.480
 Yeah, exactly.

00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.290
 So, it's like the spectrum

00:08:10.290 --> 00:08:12.500
 issue just went away, you know,

00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:14.480
 or it's about to go away.

00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:15.650
 And so now the question is just

00:08:15.650 --> 00:08:16.890
, what happened with personal

00:08:16.890 --> 00:08:17.480
 computers?

00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:18.790
 You know, what happened with

00:08:18.790 --> 00:08:20.480
 personal computers before that?

00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:21.960
 And this I remember very well,

00:08:21.960 --> 00:08:23.390
 you know, because I learned how

00:08:23.390 --> 00:08:24.480
 to program in the days before

00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:25.480
 a person's computer.

00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:27.770
 And in those days, the human

00:08:27.770 --> 00:08:30.090
 being's time was considered

00:08:30.090 --> 00:08:32.480
 disposable and the computer's

00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:34.480
 time was considered precious.

00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:35.990
 And once the PC came out, it

00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:37.480
 was all flipped around.

00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.050
 And now all of a sudden, you

00:08:39.050 --> 00:08:40.580
 know, it's the young, it was

00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:42.480
 the, you know, computers became

00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:43.480
 a free good.

00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:45.480
 And people became inexpensive.

00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:47.530
 And the same thing's happening

00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:49.350
 here is that, you know, I have,

00:08:49.350 --> 00:08:50.480
 if I have an hour a day

00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.600
 for listening to podcasts, well

00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.130
, you know, that means that

00:08:54.130 --> 00:08:55.480
 there's a tremendous limit

00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:56.480
 on what I can listen to.

00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:57.480
 Right.

00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:58.480
 It used to be, it used to be

00:08:58.480 --> 00:08:59.480
 that I'd flip the dial.

00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:00.740
 There were three public radio

00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:02.110
 stations in Seattle, which is a

00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:02.480
 lot.

00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:03.480
 Okay.

00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:04.480
 That's a lot.

00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.090
 The chance is that any of them

00:09:06.090 --> 00:09:07.790
 had anything I was interested

00:09:07.790 --> 00:09:09.480
 in listening to on any given

00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:10.480
 moment was nil.

00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:11.480
 It never happened.

00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:14.110
 So, you know, you just flip

00:09:14.110 --> 00:09:15.480
 that switch.

00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.690
 And so, you know, can you have

00:09:17.690 --> 00:09:20.100
 a company, a media company that

00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:21.480
's sort of camped out at

00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.480
 that, you know, intersection?

00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:24.770
 The answer is if we're smart

00:09:24.770 --> 00:09:25.950
 about it, you can have an

00:09:25.950 --> 00:09:27.480
 incredible media company.

00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:28.480
 Right.

00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.150
 Well, and that would be the

00:09:30.150 --> 00:09:31.450
 media company for the next

00:09:31.450 --> 00:09:32.480
 century.

00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:33.480
 Yeah.

00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:34.480
 21st century media.

00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.480
 21st century.

00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:36.480
 For this century.

00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:37.480
 Right.

00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:38.480
 Yeah.

00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:39.540
 I mean, we're not going to get

00:09:39.540 --> 00:09:40.570
 grandiose and fifths for the

00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:41.480
 third millennium.

00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:42.740
 I mean, that would be a little

00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:44.090
 bit, you know, that would sort

00:09:44.090 --> 00:09:45.480
 of like be third right here.

00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:46.900
 Well, that would be like we'd

00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:48.480
 have to live a real long time.

00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.010
 I'm not saying I'm living that

00:09:50.010 --> 00:09:50.480
 long.

00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:51.650
 Fuck now, because, you know, we

00:09:51.650 --> 00:09:52.750
'll be old and cranky motherfuck

00:09:52.750 --> 00:09:54.480
ers if we live that long.

00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:55.480
 Fuck that shit.

00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:56.480
 I'm already there.

00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.480
 It's so funny.

00:09:57.480 --> 00:09:59.410
 The other thing I talked about,

00:09:59.410 --> 00:10:01.120
 it's amazing how you segwayed

00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:02.480
 perfectly into it.

00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:03.480
 I mean, I'm not even though.

00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:04.420
 I talked about a phone

00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:05.750
 conversation yesterday with

00:10:05.750 --> 00:10:06.480
 Dave Jacobs.

00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.480
 How was Dave Jacobs?

00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.480
 Well, I'm about to tell you.

00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.670
 The amazing thing about where

00:10:12.670 --> 00:10:14.920
 Dave was at is that, you know,

00:10:14.920 --> 00:10:17.480
 I've known him for, I guess,

00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:19.480
 about over 15 years.

00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.650
 And for 10 of those 15 years, I

00:10:21.650 --> 00:10:23.170
've known that he had this

00:10:23.170 --> 00:10:25.480
 disease that basically was a

00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:25.480
 death

00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:26.480
 sex.

00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.500
 And, and of course, all the

00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:31.110
 time I've known him, he's known

00:10:31.110 --> 00:10:31.480
 that.

00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:33.580
 And talking to him yesterday,

00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:35.440
 it became clear that something

00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.480
 fundamentally had changed.

00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.260
 And, you know, I'm glad that

00:10:39.260 --> 00:10:40.480
 that's the case.

00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:41.770
 And it was an amazing

00:10:41.770 --> 00:10:43.480
 experience, you know.

00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.650
 I just, I was blown away after

00:10:45.650 --> 00:10:46.480
 I cried.

00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:47.480
 I really did.

00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:48.480
 It was like, he did too.

00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:49.180
 It was like, what a fucking

00:10:49.180 --> 00:10:49.480
 relief.

00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:50.880
 You know, I said, what I said,

00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:52.240
 they got us both going with

00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:52.480
 shit.

00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.240
 I was getting burned out of

00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.160
 this stuff and it wasn't even

00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:57.480
 happening to me.

00:10:57.480 --> 00:10:59.810
 And it's like, wow, oh, there

00:10:59.810 --> 00:11:00.480
 it is.

00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:01.140
 It's like, we're going to get

00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:01.480
 over it.

00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:02.680
 You know, I mean, he still has

00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:03.800
 challenges, but we all have

00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:04.480
 challenges.

00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.480
 And he got his life back.

00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.570
 And so people think that there

00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:10.400
's like the same list of life

00:11:10.400 --> 00:11:12.480
 that nothing ever changes.

00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.480
 You know, well, this changed.

00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.480
 Somebody's life changed here.

00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:17.750
 And a lot of other lives that

00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:19.010
 were sort of connected up to

00:11:19.010 --> 00:11:19.480
 that.

00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:20.480
 A change with it, of course.

00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:21.480
 Right.

00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:22.480
 Absolutely.

00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:23.210
 Well, it always brings me back

00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:23.740
 to the one thing that I've

00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:25.480
 repeated many, many times that

00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.480
 either you said or wrote.

00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:29.850
 I think you probably wrote it

00:11:29.850 --> 00:11:30.480
 somewhere.

00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.480
 Life is not a waltz.

00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:35.290
 It's a wild jungle dance and

00:11:35.290 --> 00:11:37.480
 shit happens when people change

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:37.480
.

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.160
 And I think you said shit

00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:40.480
 happens again.

00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.480
 No, I didn't say that.

00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.850
 The piece is "Programmers" and

00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:45.480
 it was written in 1997.

00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:47.130
 And it's probably one of the

00:11:47.130 --> 00:11:48.750
 best pieces if I could say so

00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:49.480
 myself.

00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:50.480
 It was good piece.

00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:51.480
 It sort of wrote itself.

00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:52.480
 Yeah.

00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.040
 I mean, I wanted to tell a

00:11:54.040 --> 00:11:55.820
 friend of mine who had a lot of

00:11:55.820 --> 00:11:56.480
 anger.

00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:57.890
 I really thought her anger was

00:11:57.890 --> 00:11:58.480
 beautiful.

00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.190
 And I meant she shouldn't worry

00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:01.480
 about me dodging it.

00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.110
 You know, it's like, it's

00:12:03.110 --> 00:12:04.760
 because people do put all these

00:12:04.760 --> 00:12:06.480
 judgments on certain things.

00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.140
 The fact is that if anger is

00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:10.280
 expressed safely, it can be a

00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:11.480
 good thing.

00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:12.480
 It's a good thing.

00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:13.480
 It can be a good thing.

00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:14.480
 Incredibly beautiful.

00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:15.980
 A lot of creativity comes from

00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:16.480
 anger.

00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.340
 A lot of movement comes from

00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:19.920
 anger, you know, as long as you

00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:20.480
 do it safely.

00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:21.790
 And then, you know, the thing

00:12:21.790 --> 00:12:23.020
 is that you just, you just can

00:12:23.020 --> 00:12:25.480
't predict what's coming next.

00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:26.560
 And that's the thing is you

00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:27.770
 trick yourself into believing

00:12:27.770 --> 00:12:28.480
 you can know.

00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.380
 But if you actually go back and

00:12:30.380 --> 00:12:32.120
 look at your life and see how

00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:33.480
 things played out, you realize

00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.480
 that you're in good health.

00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:36.680
 Oh yeah, God, you have no

00:12:36.680 --> 00:12:37.480
 fucking clue.

00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:38.680
 And everything you think that

00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:39.830
'll happen is always happens

00:12:39.830 --> 00:12:40.480
 backwards.

00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:41.480
 Yeah.

00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.190
 Like, did you know your mom was

00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:44.480
 going to get cancer?

00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:45.480
 No.

00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:47.000
 I mean, that's like, and, you

00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:48.630
 know, and now it looks like, I

00:12:48.630 --> 00:12:51.480
 mean, shit, the operation

00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:52.480
 is going to be on the 23rd.

00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:53.480
 Wow.

00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.160
 I didn't even think Christmas

00:12:55.160 --> 00:12:56.480
 was going to change.

00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:57.480
 And it is.

00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.480
 Where is that happening?

00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:01.480
 In Holland in New York.

00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.480
 I'm going over, obviously.

00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:04.480
 Yeah.

00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.130
 So yeah, 22nd, she goes in 23rd

00:13:07.130 --> 00:13:08.480
 is the operation.

00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.780
 They expect her to be in the

00:13:10.780 --> 00:13:13.720
 hospital for an average of 10

00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.480
 days is what is what they think

00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.230
 it takes, but she's strong, man

00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:18.480
.

00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.480
 She's so fucking strong.

00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:20.480
 Yeah.

00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:21.900
 So, but yeah, I mean, yeah,

00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:22.480
 exactly.

00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:23.860
 Who the fuck knows what's going

00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:24.480
 to happen?

00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.050
 You can't play it on stuff like

00:13:26.050 --> 00:13:26.480
 that.

00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.480
 No.

00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.480
 No.

00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.060
 So anyway, so all of this is a

00:13:31.060 --> 00:13:33.580
 big round loop to come back to

00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:35.980
 the fact that we want to feel

00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:37.020
 good about ourselves and

00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:38.480
 talking about what we're doing.

00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:39.480
 Yeah.

00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:40.480
 Well, sure.

00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:41.480
 Yeah.

00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:42.830
 I forgot how I got into the big

00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:44.070
 Jenkins thing, but it was

00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:46.480
 important for me to mention it.

00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:47.480
 Yeah.

00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.110
 Well, you said let's not talk

00:13:49.110 --> 00:13:50.480
 about the third millennium.

00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:51.780
 We'll let other people worry

00:13:51.780 --> 00:13:52.480
 about that.

00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.270
 Let's just worry about the

00:13:53.270 --> 00:13:54.480
 beginning of the 21st century.

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:55.480
 About the current one.

00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:56.480
 We're here.

00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:57.480
 We're here now.

00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.480
 We could be something about it.

00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:59.480
 Yeah.

00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.460
 But as we're thinking about

00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:04.100
 names and stuff like that, it's

00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:06.480
 funny because, yes, and I knew

00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:07.910
 that you had written this and I

00:14:07.910 --> 00:14:09.460
 actually, I went looking for it

00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:10.600
 and it was hard to find

00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:12.660
 because I didn't, I couldn't

00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:14.310
 remember if it was titled How

00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:15.920
 to Name a Company or how to

00:14:15.920 --> 00:14:17.220
 name, and anyway, it was like

00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.280
 how to name a product.

00:14:18.280 --> 00:14:19.450
 I knew you had written these

00:14:19.450 --> 00:14:20.800
 awesome guidelines which I've

00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:22.080
 used several times before and

00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.840
 then today you fucking link to

00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:25.650
 it after I spent at least 20

00:14:25.650 --> 00:14:27.280
 minutes trying to find it

00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:28.280
 yesterday.

00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:29.280
 You didn't let me know.

00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:30.280
 I know how to find this.

00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:32.170
 Oh, I know, but the whole point

00:14:32.170 --> 00:14:33.560
 was I wanted to find that

00:14:33.560 --> 00:14:34.280
 myself.

00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:35.280
 Oh, well, okay.

00:14:35.280 --> 00:14:36.750
 Then you couldn't ask me

00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:37.280
 anything.

00:14:37.280 --> 00:14:38.280
 No.

00:14:38.280 --> 00:14:39.320
 Because it's like if I couldn't

00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.440
, really, really couldn't find

00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.640
 it, then I would have asked you

00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:42.280
,

00:14:42.280 --> 00:14:43.720
 of course, but I felt I could

00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:44.280
 find it.

00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:46.370
 Why don't we go over what the

00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:48.230
 four people we talked about

00:14:48.230 --> 00:14:50.280
 naming things because one of

00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:51.550
 the things that I believe is

00:14:51.550 --> 00:14:52.950
 that before you even talk about

00:14:52.950 --> 00:14:54.280
, think about naming, you've

00:14:54.280 --> 00:14:56.180
 got to figure out first, what

00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:57.280
 are you doing?

00:14:57.280 --> 00:14:59.100
 Second of all, what do you want

00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:00.860
 to confede people with that

00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:01.280
 name?

00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:02.590
 How do you want them to think

00:15:02.590 --> 00:15:03.280
 about you?

00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:04.530
 It's like how did you come up

00:15:04.530 --> 00:15:05.520
 with the power of pure

00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:06.280
 intellect?

00:15:06.280 --> 00:15:08.280
 I'm not asking you rhetorical.

00:15:08.280 --> 00:15:09.680
 I'm not asking you to answer

00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:11.280
 that rhetorical question.

00:15:11.280 --> 00:15:12.280
 Right.

00:15:12.280 --> 00:15:13.390
 I'm not asking you to tell how

00:15:13.390 --> 00:15:14.280
 you came up with it.

00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:15.280
 Let me do this again.

00:15:15.280 --> 00:15:16.310
 It's like sort of like you've

00:15:16.310 --> 00:15:17.240
 heard it and you thought it

00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:18.280
 sounded interesting and you

00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:19.280
 decided to play it.

00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:20.280
 Exactly.

00:15:20.280 --> 00:15:21.280
 Yeah.

00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:22.480
 And then you said, "Oh, let's

00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:23.280
 try that again."

00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:24.470
 And it worked the second time

00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:25.280
 in the third time.

00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:26.520
 And then everybody, you found

00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:27.810
 yourself saying that and then,

00:15:27.810 --> 00:15:28.280
 "Boy."

00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:30.120
 I think I was there when that

00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:31.280
 first came up.

00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:32.870
 When the boy, yeah, boy, boy,

00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:33.280
 boy.

00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:35.030
 I had the next girlfriend of

00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:36.280
 mine on a trade secret.

00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:37.540
 That's right, that's right,

00:15:37.540 --> 00:15:38.280
 that's right.

00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:40.280
 You never saw the light of day.

00:15:40.280 --> 00:15:41.280
 Immediately.

00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:42.280
 That's right.

00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:43.930
 Well, no, like three boings of

00:15:43.930 --> 00:15:45.280
 that made it on the end.

00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:47.270
 The rest was all destroyed and

00:15:47.270 --> 00:15:49.280
 a horrible system crashed.

00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:50.640
 I think it actually did make it

00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:51.280
 on the air.

00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:52.830
 I think Steve Gilmore commented

00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:53.280
 on it.

00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:55.790
 He couldn't play it on the Gil

00:15:55.790 --> 00:15:58.430
more gang because of who it was

00:15:58.430 --> 00:15:59.280
 about.

00:15:59.280 --> 00:16:01.280
 International licensing issues.

00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:03.280
 Yeah, something like that.

00:16:03.280 --> 00:16:04.680
 And all right, so what was I

00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:05.280
 saying?

00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:06.650
 First, we need to know what we

00:16:06.650 --> 00:16:07.280
're doing.

00:16:07.280 --> 00:16:08.280
 Then what we want to convey.

00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:09.160
 And then we can talk about hate

00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:09.280
.

00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:11.190
 So first, what we're doing is

00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:12.280
 podcasting.

00:16:12.280 --> 00:16:13.280
 Right on.

00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:15.200
 And what do we care about with

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:16.280
 podcasting?

00:16:16.280 --> 00:16:17.900
 Well, we need good development

00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:18.280
 tools.

00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:20.280
 We need aggregators.

00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:22.280
 We need sort of reading tools.

00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:24.040
 And we need great fucking shows

00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:24.280
.

00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:27.000
 We need great shows and we need

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.280
 a fourth thing, which is...

00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:31.040
 All our money in a brown paper

00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:32.600
 bag and 24-hour day limo

00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.280
 service?

00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:35.280
 Well, that goes without saying.

00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:36.280
 And bandwidth.

00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:38.280
 Bandwidth, baby, yeah.

00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:40.280
 Yeah, bandwidth is...

00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:42.630
 In blogging, bandwidth wasn't

00:16:42.630 --> 00:16:44.270
 an issue in podcasting

00:16:44.270 --> 00:16:45.280
 bandwidth.

00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:46.280
 Yeah.

00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:48.140
 And so, okay, we can't do

00:16:48.140 --> 00:16:49.280
 everything.

00:16:49.280 --> 00:16:50.280
 Right?

00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:53.320
 I think what we've learned in

00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:55.280
 the last few weeks,

00:16:55.280 --> 00:16:57.280
 we've learned where we thought

00:16:57.280 --> 00:16:58.620
 we could depend on the

00:16:58.620 --> 00:16:59.280
 community

00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:02.650
 to do the aggregators that we

00:17:02.650 --> 00:17:04.280
 can't depend on the community

00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:06.280
 to do the aggregators.

00:17:06.280 --> 00:17:08.390
 Now, let's just clarify,

00:17:08.390 --> 00:17:09.700
 because I don't think everyone

00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:10.280
 understands,

00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:11.510
 when we say aggregators, we're

00:17:11.510 --> 00:17:13.280
 basically talking about iPoders

00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:14.280
 in the podcasting sense.

00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:15.280
 So, I think...

00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:16.780
 You basically stayed out of iP

00:17:16.780 --> 00:17:17.280
oders.

00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:18.620
 Once you finished doing your

00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.280
 work there, it was sort of like

00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:23.280
 I was watching from a distance.

00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:24.620
 Watching the mail list to see

00:17:24.620 --> 00:17:25.280
 what was going on.

00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:26.760
 Things seemed to be going

00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:27.280
 smoothly.

00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:29.650
 And I didn't see any reason at

00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:31.280
 all to get involved,

00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:33.050
 because people seem generally

00:17:33.050 --> 00:17:34.730
 to be happy with what was going

00:17:34.730 --> 00:17:35.280
 on there.

00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:37.280
 They don't fix it, right?

00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:38.740
 But then there's sort of famous

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:40.420
 whole battles, and it really

00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:41.280
 was a battle

00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:43.510
 over whether or not we would

00:17:43.510 --> 00:17:46.280
 break the RSS 2.0 stack.

00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:47.940
 I don't consider that to be a

00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.670
 subjective discussion, and I

00:17:49.670 --> 00:17:51.280
 don't want to discuss it.

00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:52.280
 I don't think it...

00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:53.280
 Yeah, I agree.

00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:54.280
 It's like...

00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:55.970
 And the horrible thing about

00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:57.280
 that is that there was a week,

00:17:57.280 --> 00:18:00.070
 a whole week of off-list email

00:18:00.070 --> 00:18:02.280
 conversation going on,

00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:04.250
 which I think I know you and I

00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.600
 got real uncomfortable with all

00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:07.280
 that.

00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:08.650
 It was like all of a sudden

00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:10.280
 there was a little...

00:18:10.280 --> 00:18:11.280
 Yeah, go ahead.

00:18:11.280 --> 00:18:12.280
 I mean, that part you did.

00:18:12.280 --> 00:18:14.100
 I mean, you did a beautiful job

00:18:14.100 --> 00:18:16.120
 with starting iPoders community

00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:16.280
 off,

00:18:16.280 --> 00:18:18.040
 and then there are new maintain

00:18:18.040 --> 00:18:19.280
ers of that stuff.

00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:21.390
 And what they need to do is

00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:22.830
 they need to adopt a sort of

00:18:22.830 --> 00:18:24.280
 helpful point of view.

00:18:24.280 --> 00:18:26.280
 It's like, we're here to help,

00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:28.560
 and users and developers party

00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:29.280
 together.

00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:32.160
 And that doesn't include

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.750
 developers trying to be fasc

00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:36.280
ists with the user, you know?

00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:38.280
 [laughter]

00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:40.120
 I mean, I said at one point to

00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:41.280
 one of these guys,

00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:42.270
 "Jay, you might want to just

00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:43.280
 cut out a little bit of slack,"

00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:45.970
 because basically, you've got a

00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:48.280
 really popular podcast that

00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:49.280
 wears your up sign

00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:51.280
 and be in piffy with the guy.

00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:53.550
 And unfortunately, developers

00:18:53.550 --> 00:18:56.280
 are like, they don't get that.

00:18:56.280 --> 00:18:57.280
 A lot of them don't get it.

00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:58.780
 And when you find one that sort

00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:00.250
 of says, "Look, I'm here to

00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:01.280
 serve the users.

00:19:01.280 --> 00:19:03.280
 That's why I'm doing this.

00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:05.120
 And I'm not going to bring any

00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:07.280
 of my own bullshit into this."

00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:09.280
 Then we're happy.

00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:12.090
 And if we can get there without

00:19:12.090 --> 00:19:14.280
 having to put into this, right?

00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:15.280
 Right.

00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:16.280
 Then we'll stay out of it.

00:19:16.280 --> 00:19:18.470
 Because frankly, every day I

00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:20.550
 hear about another iPoder and

00:19:20.550 --> 00:19:22.080
 another sort of group of people

00:19:22.080 --> 00:19:22.280
.

00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:23.550
 I mean, even the VCs are

00:19:23.550 --> 00:19:25.280
 starting investing this show.

00:19:25.280 --> 00:19:26.280
 Oh, of course.

00:19:26.280 --> 00:19:28.730
 I mean, this, and I think that

00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:30.760
's -- you and I both said, "Hey,

00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:31.280
 look,

00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:33.500
 here's something that finally

00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.400
 we're getting recognition for

00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:37.280
 creating,

00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:40.420
 something that we did create,

00:19:40.420 --> 00:19:42.420
 which is based upon an

00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:43.880
 incredible body of work that

00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:44.280
 you did,

00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:46.990
 which has just -- and that's

00:19:46.990 --> 00:19:48.990
 had a whole fucking life of its

00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:51.280
 own on and off list.

00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:52.280
 Let's just call it that.

00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:54.750
 And lots of people have made

00:19:54.750 --> 00:19:58.280
 money off of web logs and RSS.

00:19:58.280 --> 00:20:02.250
 And I think that guys like you

00:20:02.250 --> 00:20:06.280
 and I, we need to at some point

00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:06.280
 --

00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:06.920
 and it doesn't have to be every

00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:08.130
 single time, but at some point

00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:08.280
 --

00:20:08.280 --> 00:20:09.430
 I think you've said this, we've

00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:10.090
 got to make a little bit of

00:20:10.090 --> 00:20:12.420
 money so we can go on and help

00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.280
 with the next thing.

00:20:14.280 --> 00:20:16.540
 We've got to capitalize on this

00:20:16.540 --> 00:20:18.690
 or we'll never be able to help

00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:20.280
 with the next step.

00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:22.080
 I think that it's even -- yes,

00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:23.980
 I totally fully agree with that

00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:24.280
.

00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:27.200
 And it's even more than that,

00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.280
 though.

00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.390
 I think that in order to be

00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:33.000
 successful at this idea of

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.310
 starting something like this

00:20:35.310 --> 00:20:36.280
 and seeing it through,

00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:38.130
 you have to make sure that the

00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:40.620
 iPodder thing, which is a key

00:20:40.620 --> 00:20:42.280
 element of the whole system,

00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:44.240
 is on a solid foundation and

00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.550
 where it doesn't, like, split

00:20:46.550 --> 00:20:47.280
 apart.

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:49.100
 The thing you don't want to

00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:51.250
 have to deal with is to have to

00:20:51.250 --> 00:20:53.460
 use one program to listen to

00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.280
 one podcast

00:20:54.280 --> 00:20:55.570
 and another program to

00:20:55.570 --> 00:20:57.280
 subscribe to another one.

00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:58.800
 In other words, like, if you

00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:00.430
 had to -- it's sort of like, if

00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:01.280
 you had to use --

00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:02.540
 you could only read -- The New

00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:03.620
 York Times could only be read

00:21:03.620 --> 00:21:04.280
 on the Macintosh

00:21:04.280 --> 00:21:05.770
 and The Wall Street Journal

00:21:05.770 --> 00:21:07.280
 could only be read on the PC.

00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:08.280
 Well, that would suck, right?

00:21:08.280 --> 00:21:09.280
 Or you don't want to go there.

00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:10.280
 Or you could even --

00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:11.280
 Yeah, you could even --

00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:13.350
 Or you could even use a watch

00:21:13.350 --> 00:21:14.280
 on the PC.

00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:16.280
 And that's where we got to.

00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:17.880
 That's where this discussion

00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:18.280
 got to.

00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:20.080
 So this is sort of a message to

00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:22.280
 the iPodder developer community

00:21:22.280 --> 00:21:24.250
 that we are not without options

00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:25.280
 here, okay?

00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:27.280
 It's still really early.

00:21:27.280 --> 00:21:28.950
 If you're feeling like you've

00:21:28.950 --> 00:21:30.340
 got a sizable piece of the

00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:32.280
 install base, I swear to God,

00:21:32.280 --> 00:21:33.780
 this is a tiny fraction of what

00:21:33.780 --> 00:21:34.280
's coming.

00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:35.530
 This is fucking nothing

00:21:35.530 --> 00:21:37.280
 compared to what's out there.

00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:39.000
 Right. And so let's get it

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.020
 together and let's get a real

00:21:40.020 --> 00:21:42.280
 sense of developer and user

00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:43.280
 reporting together.

00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:45.350
 If not, developers party

00:21:45.350 --> 00:21:47.510
 together and forget all about

00:21:47.510 --> 00:21:48.280
 users.

00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:49.280
 Not that.

00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:51.170
 And I got to tell you, I feel a

00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:52.830
 little -- just a little bit

00:21:52.830 --> 00:21:54.280
 responsible for some of that

00:21:54.280 --> 00:21:56.230
 because what happened with the

00:21:56.230 --> 00:21:59.280
 iPodder dev list is it exploded

00:21:59.280 --> 00:21:59.280
.

00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:00.640
 And also kind of at a time when

00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.280
 I was moving and, you know,

00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:03.350
 I didn't really have a lot of

00:22:03.350 --> 00:22:04.610
 time to focus on the, you know,

00:22:04.610 --> 00:22:05.280
 hundreds of messages

00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:06.280
 that seemed to appear daily.

00:22:06.280 --> 00:22:07.280
 No, you're not responsible.

00:22:07.280 --> 00:22:08.590
 Well, yeah, but I couldn't

00:22:08.590 --> 00:22:09.280
 control it.

00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:11.280
 I could not add anything.

00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.480
 If you tried to control it, you

00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:14.860
 would have learned the same

00:22:14.860 --> 00:22:16.280
 thing that you couldn't control

00:22:16.280 --> 00:22:16.280
 it

00:22:16.280 --> 00:22:17.280
 and it would have been a mess.

00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:18.280
 Okay, good.

00:22:18.280 --> 00:22:20.730
 Yeah, I mean, you know, it just

00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:22.480
 got to the point where, you

00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.280
 know, it just had to happen.

00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:25.020
 I mean, that's just what

00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:25.280
 happened.

00:22:25.280 --> 00:22:26.280
 Yeah.

00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:27.480
 And you can't take

00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.280
 responsibility for it.

00:22:29.280 --> 00:22:30.480
 It's just something you're

00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:31.280
 responsible for.

00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:32.690
 It's just -- I mean, hasn't,

00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:33.750
 like, you know, become a big

00:22:33.750 --> 00:22:34.280
 problem yet.

00:22:34.280 --> 00:22:36.280
 And so that's number one.

00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:37.950
 Number two is there's all kinds

00:22:37.950 --> 00:22:39.590
 of other development, content

00:22:39.590 --> 00:22:40.280
 development tools.

00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:42.280
 It's a very rich area.

00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:44.580
 And our little company or big

00:22:44.580 --> 00:22:45.890
 company, if we hope it becomes

00:22:45.890 --> 00:22:47.830
 a big one, right, isn't going

00:22:47.830 --> 00:22:49.860
 to be in every aspect of that

00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.280
 fight.

00:22:50.280 --> 00:22:51.920
 Any stretch of the United

00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:53.280
 Nations, right?

00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:54.820
 And so there's all kinds of

00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:56.640
 stuff that you use that we can

00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.280
 be in a position to endorse.

00:22:58.280 --> 00:23:00.280
 We can work with people.

00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:02.170
 By the way, don't forget that

00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:03.990
 there's also iPods and equival

00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:05.280
ents, you know.

00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:07.770
 There's like, what is the ideal

00:23:07.770 --> 00:23:10.280
 iPod for podcasting look like?

00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:11.490
 Well, I can tell you for sure,

00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:12.620
 it's not the thing that Apple

00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:13.280
 should say.

00:23:13.280 --> 00:23:14.280
 Nope.

00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:15.280
 That's not ideal.

00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:16.410
 Not even the one that you have

00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:17.280
 the U2 name on it.

00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:18.820
 That doesn't even come close

00:23:18.820 --> 00:23:19.280
 either.

00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:20.280
 Yeah, I'm sorry.

00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:20.870
 I'm afraid that this is the

00:23:20.870 --> 00:23:21.280
 same thing.

00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:22.840
 Unless it has a fucking message

00:23:22.840 --> 00:23:23.280
 on it.

00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:24.080
 Yeah, if you have a cell phone

00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:24.640
 on it, that might be a

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.280
 different story.

00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:27.320
 You get a bit -- no, I'm only

00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:28.280
 kidding.

00:23:28.280 --> 00:23:29.480
 No, it needs to have Wi-Fi

00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:30.280
 built into it.

00:23:30.280 --> 00:23:32.280
 It needs to have aggregators.

00:23:32.280 --> 00:23:34.360
 The iPod needs to run on by

00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:35.280
 itself.

00:23:35.280 --> 00:23:36.280
 Right?

00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:38.050
 It needs to constantly do it

00:23:38.050 --> 00:23:39.940
 for a Wi-Fi signal to see if it

00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:41.280
 can find a police cell.

00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:44.560
 Just as a quick sidebar, we're

00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:46.050
 recording this show on my cell

00:23:46.050 --> 00:23:46.280
 phone.

00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:47.280
 Just want you to know that --

00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:48.280
 Yeah, I'm kidding.

00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:49.280
 It's fucking amazing.

00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:52.640
 This thing -- I knew it did MP3

00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.280
s.

00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:55.280
 As in it can record them.

00:23:55.280 --> 00:23:56.280
 It can play them.

00:23:56.280 --> 00:23:57.710
 But it's actually -- there's a

00:23:57.710 --> 00:23:58.860
 button on it that lets you

00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:00.280
 record your conversation.

00:24:00.280 --> 00:24:02.720
 It's not -- it has, I think, a

00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.280
 reasonably mature OS in there.

00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:08.060
 It should not be a big stretch

00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:10.820
 for this thing to have iPod or

00:24:10.820 --> 00:24:12.280
 functionality.

00:24:12.280 --> 00:24:15.300
 And with GPRS, which is to step

00:24:15.300 --> 00:24:17.580
 up from cell phones and way

00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:18.280
 below Wi-Fi.

00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:20.020
 But it has its built-in network

00:24:20.020 --> 00:24:20.280
.

00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:21.280
 I mean, this is --

00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:22.280
 What brand of phone is that?

00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:25.280
 This is a Sony Ericsson.

00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:29.280
 It's the 700i.

00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:30.870
 And I didn't really think much

00:24:30.870 --> 00:24:31.280
 of it.

00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:32.260
 It's just there was like one

00:24:32.260 --> 00:24:33.570
 that I thought looked nice when

00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:34.930
 I picked it up from Virgin

00:24:34.930 --> 00:24:35.280
 Mobile.

00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:36.690
 But it had this functionality

00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:37.280
 in there.

00:24:37.280 --> 00:24:39.280
 And it's outrageous.

00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:41.280
 I gotta tell you something.

00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:43.460
 When you just said, I didn't

00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:45.280
 think very much of it.

00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:46.740
 It had a little bit of a liver-

00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:48.280
pull thing going on there.

00:24:48.280 --> 00:24:50.280
 It might have happened to me.

00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:52.280
 Yeah, you started flipping.

00:24:52.280 --> 00:24:53.680
 You asked me to tell you if you

00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.280
 were flipping into it, right?

00:24:55.280 --> 00:24:56.280
 Oh my God.

00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:58.280
 It's happening already.

00:24:58.280 --> 00:25:00.280
 It's getting assimilated.

00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:02.460
 I think something to the UK

00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:03.280
 whole.

00:25:03.280 --> 00:25:05.280
 Now, you get compensated.

00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:06.280
 You get overcompensated.

00:25:06.280 --> 00:25:08.280
 They're becoming harms.

00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:10.000
 No, but I can become the

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.280
 database boy.

00:25:11.280 --> 00:25:13.440
 We have many people from India,

00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.280
 Pakistan here in the UK.

00:25:15.280 --> 00:25:16.280
 And when we have electricity,

00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:18.280
 we'll be even faster.

00:25:18.280 --> 00:25:19.280
 All right.

00:25:19.280 --> 00:25:20.340
 So let me just run through some

00:25:20.340 --> 00:25:21.280
 more of iPod features.

00:25:21.280 --> 00:25:22.280
 That phone is great.

00:25:22.280 --> 00:25:24.280
 And that's, you know, okay.

00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:26.480
 There's like this matrix of

00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.280
 features.

00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:29.280
 It's a confusing situation.

00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:31.280
 But what do we need?

00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.810
 And by the way, we ought to

00:25:32.810 --> 00:25:33.280
 also be--

00:25:33.280 --> 00:25:34.450
 I mean, so like we need better

00:25:34.450 --> 00:25:35.280
 user interface.

00:25:35.280 --> 00:25:36.970
 We need a button that we can

00:25:36.970 --> 00:25:38.280
 press while driving.

00:25:38.280 --> 00:25:39.280
 Yeah, actually, yeah.

00:25:39.280 --> 00:25:40.280
 Big red one, yeah.

00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:41.280
 Yeah.

00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:43.310
 And then, okay, we need a ROM-

00:25:43.310 --> 00:25:45.050
able iPod or we need something

00:25:45.050 --> 00:25:46.280
 that works in this mode.

00:25:46.280 --> 00:25:48.880
 So the UI has to collapse down

00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.280
 to just a four-button UI.

00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.280
 Sure, it dots.

00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:55.110
 But what about when you're not

00:25:55.110 --> 00:25:55.280
 docked?

00:25:55.280 --> 00:25:56.020
 And how can we keep it so that

00:25:56.020 --> 00:25:56.850
 if you're doing this while you

00:25:56.850 --> 00:25:57.280
're driving,

00:25:57.280 --> 00:25:58.260
 you don't know if you're

00:25:58.260 --> 00:25:59.280
 driving off the road?

00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:00.280
 This is a big deal, right?

00:26:00.280 --> 00:26:02.010
 Saving the lives of our iPoders

00:26:02.010 --> 00:26:02.280
.

00:26:02.280 --> 00:26:03.280
 We really care about that.

00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:05.130
 And in fact, I have to say that

00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:05.280
--

00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:07.710
 and I've been a cell phone guy

00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:09.280
 for a long time.

00:26:09.280 --> 00:26:10.730
 Some cell phone interfaces are

00:26:10.730 --> 00:26:12.280
 actually starting to make sense

00:26:12.280 --> 00:26:13.480
 because they've been through 8,

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:14.280
000 iterations,

00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:16.030
 unlike the iPod and MP3 players

00:26:16.030 --> 00:26:16.280
.

00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:17.280
 Yeah.

00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:18.900
 And they always knew from day

00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:19.970
 one, hey, we've got people in

00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:20.280
 the car.

00:26:20.280 --> 00:26:21.280
 They're mobile.

00:26:21.280 --> 00:26:22.970
 So they were thinking much more

00:26:22.970 --> 00:26:24.280
 about the mobile aspect.

00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:27.010
 And so, yeah, just explain the

00:26:27.010 --> 00:26:28.820
 ROM-able part because I know

00:26:28.820 --> 00:26:29.280
 what you mean.

00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:30.200
 But I don't know if all the

00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:31.280
 listeners know what you mean.

00:26:31.280 --> 00:26:33.230
 Well, you know, I mean, ROM-

00:26:33.230 --> 00:26:35.810
able stands for able to put into

00:26:35.810 --> 00:26:37.280
 read-only memory,

00:26:37.280 --> 00:26:39.280
 which is really not true.

00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:40.900
 It doesn't need to be

00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.540
 specifically legally read-only

00:26:42.540 --> 00:26:43.280
 memory.

00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:45.260
 But the idea is that you're

00:26:45.260 --> 00:26:47.300
 taking it out of a rich

00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:48.280
 environment,

00:26:48.280 --> 00:26:51.280
 like a laptop or a PC, desktop,

00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:52.540
 and putting it onto one of

00:26:52.540 --> 00:26:54.220
 these devices with a really

00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:55.280
 limited UI.

00:26:55.280 --> 00:26:57.040
 So you're thinking, OK, take a

00:26:57.040 --> 00:26:59.280
 big piece of software.

00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:01.260
 Like an iPod has got a lot of

00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:03.280
 little dials and things

00:27:03.280 --> 00:27:05.500
 that you can turn and things,

00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:06.280
 whatever.

00:27:06.280 --> 00:27:07.280
 It should.

00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:08.990
 So you can't do that on an iPod

00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:09.280
.

00:27:09.280 --> 00:27:11.760
 You just don't have that much

00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:13.280
 UI to play with.

00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:15.210
 This is a whole other UI

00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:16.280
 problem.

00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:18.210
 And so you could say that our

00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:20.880
 company wants to, at the very

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:21.280
 least,

00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:23.130
 work with people who are

00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:24.280
 creating products.

00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:26.260
 And, you know, either they're

00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:28.280
 in competition with the iPod,

00:27:28.280 --> 00:27:29.280
 basically,

00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:30.440
 or should Apple decide this is

00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:31.280
 an interesting area

00:27:31.280 --> 00:27:33.310
 and we'd be happy to work with

00:27:33.310 --> 00:27:34.280
 Apple too.

00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:35.890
 Or maybe we want to create the

00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:37.280
 product ourselves.

00:27:37.280 --> 00:27:38.610
 I would do that with a lot of

00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.530
 reluctance, but still, not

00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:41.280
 ruling out,

00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:42.650
 because there are OEM-type

00:27:42.650 --> 00:27:44.280
 situations that one can do.

00:27:44.280 --> 00:27:45.970
 And branding and stuff like

00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:47.280
 that can really appear

00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:48.410
 that we're creating our own

00:27:48.410 --> 00:27:50.280
 product and the fact we're not.

00:27:50.280 --> 00:27:51.830
 Well, we're just doing the

00:27:51.830 --> 00:27:53.760
 design because we understand

00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:55.280
 this area as users.

00:27:55.280 --> 00:27:57.310
 And we understand it as users

00:27:57.310 --> 00:27:59.470
 who really, really care about

00:27:59.470 --> 00:28:00.280
 this stuff.

00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:01.280
 So that's another one.

00:28:01.280 --> 00:28:03.200
 Now, another part of the

00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:06.280
 content development side is,

00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:06.280
 you know,

00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:09.040
 we've been, like, seeing a lot

00:28:09.040 --> 00:28:10.510
 of it you've been driving has

00:28:10.510 --> 00:28:11.280
 been with OPML.

00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:15.370
 And there we can do a lot. And

00:28:15.370 --> 00:28:16.280
 we can do it quickly.

00:28:16.280 --> 00:28:17.960
 And we will do a lot and we

00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.280
 will do it quickly,

00:28:19.280 --> 00:28:20.960
 because of the open source

00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.280
 release of Frontier,

00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:23.880
 which includes a really

00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:25.280
 excellent outliner.

00:28:25.280 --> 00:28:28.000
 And, you know, I would think

00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.640
 that maybe even before the end

00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:30.280
 of the year,

00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:33.690
 we will have an OPML tool that

00:28:33.690 --> 00:28:35.720
 works on both Windows and Mac

00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:36.280
intosh.

00:28:36.280 --> 00:28:37.280
 And on my cell phone.

00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:39.280
 And very, very -- pardon me?

00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:40.280
 And on my cell phone.

00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:42.040
 Probably not on your cell phone

00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:42.280
.

00:28:42.280 --> 00:28:44.870
 Okay. I'm not -- I was dreaming

00:28:44.870 --> 00:28:45.280
 again.

00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:47.610
 I couldn't just say, "Oh, yeah,

00:28:47.610 --> 00:28:48.280
 I'm on your cell phone."

00:28:48.280 --> 00:28:49.280
 Of course.

00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:51.280
 Well, hey, that's a VC pitch.

00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:52.340
 That's a -- well, of course, we

00:28:52.340 --> 00:28:53.280
'll have it on every cell phone.

00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:54.160
 That's for the -- that's a

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.280
 venture capitalist pitch.

00:28:55.280 --> 00:28:56.360
 Well, of course, it will be on

00:28:56.360 --> 00:28:57.520
 every single cell phone all

00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:59.280
 over the -- over the universe.

00:28:59.280 --> 00:29:01.280
 Well, yeah.

00:29:01.280 --> 00:29:02.280
 Okay.

00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:04.160
 It'll be a -- I'm unfortunately

00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:05.660
 -- you have to put me -- leave

00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:06.280
 me at home on the day

00:29:06.280 --> 00:29:08.280
 to go to a Mac pitch, okay?

00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:09.840
 Because I'm very likely to do

00:29:09.840 --> 00:29:11.280
 what I've done in the past,

00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:12.540
 which is say, "Well, what do I

00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:13.280
 really need?"

00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:18.280
 [ Laughter ]

00:29:18.280 --> 00:29:19.850
 You want to leave me home that

00:29:19.850 --> 00:29:20.280
 day.

00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:21.280
 Okay. So what do we want to do?

00:29:21.280 --> 00:29:22.280
 Content development.

00:29:22.280 --> 00:29:24.120
 We listen to the listening side

00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:26.030
, the aggregating side of things

00:29:26.030 --> 00:29:26.280
.

00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:29.280
 The content now, right?

00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:30.350
 And this is something -- this

00:29:30.350 --> 00:29:32.470
 is where I think the real juice

00:29:32.470 --> 00:29:33.280
 is for us.

00:29:33.280 --> 00:29:34.280
 Yeah. I agree.

00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:34.710
 This is what I'm the most

00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:35.280
 excited about, really.

00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:37.650
 Yeah. I mean, we've got the

00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:39.930
 number one podcast now, I think

00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:40.280
.

00:29:40.280 --> 00:29:41.590
 Not too many people have been

00:29:41.590 --> 00:29:42.280
 in dispute.

00:29:42.280 --> 00:29:45.340
 Well, as Tony Khan would say, I

00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:47.090
'm the Ed Sullivan of podcasting

00:29:47.090 --> 00:29:47.280
.

00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:48.280
 Exactly.

00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:50.430
 And I wear that badge with

00:29:50.430 --> 00:29:51.280
 pride.

00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:52.280
 And you do it really well.

00:29:52.280 --> 00:29:54.280
 And we love what you do.

00:29:54.280 --> 00:29:56.530
 And it seems to come naturally

00:29:56.530 --> 00:29:57.280
 to you.

00:29:57.280 --> 00:29:57.940
 It's sort of like where you

00:29:57.940 --> 00:29:58.280
 gravitate.

00:29:58.280 --> 00:29:59.280
 It's what you did it into.

00:29:59.280 --> 00:30:01.500
 Yeah, it's what I've done all

00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:02.280
 my life.

00:30:02.280 --> 00:30:04.010
 And out of that is going to

00:30:04.010 --> 00:30:05.980
 come a whole new music industry

00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:06.280
.

00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:08.220
 Oh, man. That would be so

00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:09.280
 fucking cool.

00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:10.280
 Exactly.

00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.250
 And maybe partnerships with RIA

00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:14.280
 companies.

00:30:14.280 --> 00:30:15.280
 Yeah, of course.

00:30:15.280 --> 00:30:16.280
 We need to -- well, we --

00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:18.280
 Be part of this because we have

00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:19.830
 a very inclusive attitude about

00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:21.280
 these things.

00:30:21.280 --> 00:30:22.890
 We don't want -- it's not -- we

00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:24.540
're not here to prove a point

00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:25.280
 with anybody in specific.

00:30:25.280 --> 00:30:26.780
 We just all we really want to

00:30:26.780 --> 00:30:28.650
 do is enjoy this new medium and

00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:30.280
 help develop it.

00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:32.140
 And because it's just like you

00:30:32.140 --> 00:30:33.280
 love it, right?

00:30:33.280 --> 00:30:34.280
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:39.280
 And then other brand names.

00:30:39.280 --> 00:30:40.650
 I guess -- I don't know how

00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:42.480
 else to put it, but other brand

00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.280
 names from the 20th century,

00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:46.090
 you know, bring them into the

00:30:46.090 --> 00:30:47.280
 21st century.

00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:48.580
 And I think a lot of them will

00:30:48.580 --> 00:30:50.280
 carry over very, very nicely.

00:30:50.280 --> 00:30:52.680
 And some of them will come

00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.280
 kicking and screaming.

00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:56.280
 Yeah.

00:30:56.280 --> 00:30:57.870
 Well, the key to the spirit

00:30:57.870 --> 00:30:59.280
 part we can do without.

00:30:59.280 --> 00:31:00.280
 Yeah.

00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:01.420
 They can go work with our

00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:02.280
 competitors.

00:31:02.280 --> 00:31:03.280
 But --

00:31:03.280 --> 00:31:05.280
 But, yeah.

00:31:05.280 --> 00:31:07.090
 So, you know, so what we want

00:31:07.090 --> 00:31:08.720
 to do is have a bunch of, you

00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.280
 know, people that we love

00:31:10.280 --> 00:31:11.280
 working with,

00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:14.280
 you know, who do great stuff.

00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:15.740
 Your pod squad is the beginning

00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:16.280
 of that.

00:31:16.280 --> 00:31:18.710
 Well, that's something else

00:31:18.710 --> 00:31:21.230
 that we've talked about is that

00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:23.020
 in the way -- you know, in what

00:31:23.020 --> 00:31:23.280
 we're doing,

00:31:23.280 --> 00:31:25.700
 and particularly with this,

00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:28.010
 with podcasting, there is no

00:31:28.010 --> 00:31:30.280
 lock-in competitive advantage

00:31:30.280 --> 00:31:33.280
 that can really be created.

00:31:33.280 --> 00:31:35.280
 It just doesn't work.

00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:37.550
 And so what appeals to me, I

00:31:37.550 --> 00:31:39.610
 think, an incredible amount is

00:31:39.610 --> 00:31:42.050
 that we really can only compete

00:31:42.050 --> 00:31:43.280
 on fucking quality.

00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:44.610
 Quality and quality and speed

00:31:44.610 --> 00:31:46.930
 and agility, but not on lock-in

00:31:46.930 --> 00:31:47.280
.

00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:48.160
 And that is, you know, I love

00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:48.280
 --

00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:49.280
 No lock-in.

00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:50.280
 No lock-in.

00:31:50.280 --> 00:31:52.280
 And we can cut anything off.

00:31:52.280 --> 00:31:54.280
 And I fucking love that part.

00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:55.280
 Yep.

00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.280
 I mean, we're coming --

00:31:56.280 --> 00:31:56.960
 So, we're either good or we're

00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.280
 not good.

00:31:57.280 --> 00:31:58.250
 You know, we're either number

00:31:58.250 --> 00:31:59.280
 one or we're not number one.

00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:00.280
 And just story.

00:32:00.280 --> 00:32:01.160
 Because, you know, while we

00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:02.190
 come from different backgrounds

00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:04.050
, the one thing we have in

00:32:04.050 --> 00:32:04.280
 common

00:32:04.280 --> 00:32:06.920
 is sort of an innate love of

00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.280
 the Internet and what it says,

00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:10.280
 you know.

00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:11.470
 It says, "Ask not what the

00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:12.770
 Internet can do for you after

00:32:12.770 --> 00:32:14.280
 you can do for the Internet."

00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:15.280
 Right on.

00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:17.280
 And, you know, we've got to --

00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:20.120
 like, everything that we do has

00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:22.280
 to work at that level.

00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:24.410
 On the other hand, as you know,

00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:26.460
 I've asked you many times, "Why

00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:27.280
 does this, an MTV,

00:32:27.280 --> 00:32:30.280
 didn't have any competition?"

00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:33.290
 And sometimes a company, a

00:32:33.290 --> 00:32:36.950
 brand is so strong that, you

00:32:36.950 --> 00:32:39.280
 know, you've got to figure that

00:32:39.280 --> 00:32:41.410
 there were people who thought

00:32:41.410 --> 00:32:43.950
 about launching a competitor to

00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:44.280
 MTV.

00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:45.870
 And maybe it's just because MTV

00:32:45.870 --> 00:32:47.280
 didn't lock anyone out.

00:32:47.280 --> 00:32:48.910
 That basically the bands that

00:32:48.910 --> 00:32:50.340
 wanted to participate could

00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:51.280
 participate.

00:32:51.280 --> 00:32:52.280
 Well, I don't know.

00:32:52.280 --> 00:32:55.450
 And that -- well, that's really

00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.620
 what did it, I think, is that I

00:32:57.620 --> 00:33:00.280
 won my MTV campaign, which

00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:01.500
 was done by the artists

00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:02.280
 themselves.

00:33:02.280 --> 00:33:04.040
 The MTV routed around the

00:33:04.040 --> 00:33:06.360
 record companies and all their

00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:08.280
 approval bullshit and went

00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:08.280
 straight

00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:10.290
 to Sting and Madonna and said,

00:33:10.290 --> 00:33:11.280
 "Yes.

00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:12.780
 Do you remember the beginning

00:33:12.780 --> 00:33:13.280
 of MTV?

00:33:13.280 --> 00:33:15.000
 It was, you know, I want my MTV

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:15.280
.

00:33:15.280 --> 00:33:18.400
 That was -- oh, yeah, that was

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:20.280
 the campaign."

00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:21.280
 You still there?

00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:22.280
 Yeah, I'm here.

00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:23.280
 Okay.

00:33:23.280 --> 00:33:26.360
 Yeah, so the "I Want My MTV"

00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:28.460
 campaign was basically MTV

00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:31.280
 going backstage at concerts

00:33:31.280 --> 00:33:33.380
 and events and, like, award

00:33:33.380 --> 00:33:35.580
 shows and, you know, getting

00:33:35.580 --> 00:33:37.280
 like a quote from Sting or

00:33:37.280 --> 00:33:37.280
 Madonna

00:33:37.280 --> 00:33:38.950
 or whatever and they'd make it,

00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:40.700
 you know, say, "Please, could

00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:41.280
 you say, 'I want my MTV?'"

00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:43.070
 And then that just became like

00:33:43.070 --> 00:33:44.280
 the whole slogan.

00:33:44.280 --> 00:33:45.320
 And then everyone was saying,

00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:46.370
 you know, then it became their

00:33:46.370 --> 00:33:47.280
 marketing campaign.

00:33:47.280 --> 00:33:49.120
 Call up your cable company and

00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:50.280
 say, "I want my MTV."

00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:52.280
 It clearly worked.

00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:55.090
 I remember -- all I remember is

00:33:55.090 --> 00:33:57.280
 the Dire Straits song.

00:33:57.280 --> 00:33:58.810
 I was not an early adopter of

00:33:58.810 --> 00:33:59.280
 MTV.

00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:02.280
 You know, very, very rarely.

00:34:02.280 --> 00:34:04.260
 I'm an early adopter, so I don

00:34:04.260 --> 00:34:06.280
't remember the early days.

00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:07.280
 Okay.

00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:09.280
 I remember it being there.

00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.580
 I don't remember the first time

00:34:10.580 --> 00:34:11.280
 I heard of it.

00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.280
 Right.

00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:13.280
 Yeah.

00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:14.690
 But, you know, so there was a

00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:17.480
 lot to it, but there's some big

00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.280
 differences.

00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:20.930
 Making a music video then,

00:34:20.930 --> 00:34:22.650
 which no one really knew what

00:34:22.650 --> 00:34:23.280
 it was.

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.270
 It was like, you know, you had

00:34:25.270 --> 00:34:27.280
 to have a director kind of do,

00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.280
 you know, and some was video,

00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:30.930
 but some was still film of, you

00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:32.280
 know, you performing.

00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:33.860
 It was like it wasn't quite

00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:35.570
 easy for anyone to just go make

00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:36.280
 a video.

00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.280
 No, we're in a different place.

00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.400
 Yeah, they started to cost a

00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:40.280
 shitload of money.

00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:41.990
 But you were doing pirate radio

00:34:41.990 --> 00:34:43.280
 before MTV, right?

00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.280
 Yeah.

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.370
 So how did you feel about the

00:34:46.370 --> 00:34:47.760
 fact that the cost of

00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:50.280
 production for MTV was at least

00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:50.280
 hundreds

00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:51.880
 of thousands of dollars, at

00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:53.280
 millions of dollars?

00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.280
 How did I feel about it?

00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:56.280
 Yeah, I don't know.

00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.040
 I mean, it didn't sit well with

00:34:58.040 --> 00:34:58.280
 you.

00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:00.280
 It was always for the rich, you

00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.130
 know, the only people with a

00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:03.280
 lot of money.

00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:03.950
 We were doing something

00:35:03.950 --> 00:35:04.280
 different.

00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.280
 It's not really comparable.

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.280
 It's not really comparable.

00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:10.650
 Because, you know, now the

00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:11.910
 tools are all out there and

00:35:11.910 --> 00:35:13.610
 everyone can make stuff, you

00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:14.280
 know,

00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.470
 but something similar is kind

00:35:16.470 --> 00:35:19.180
 of happening in reverse because

00:35:19.180 --> 00:35:21.280
, you know, I'm getting from

00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:22.970
 the listeners, from source code

00:35:22.970 --> 00:35:24.470
 listeners who eventually all go

00:35:24.470 --> 00:35:25.280
 on to create, some of them

00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.530
 don't go on to do their own

00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:27.280
 podcasts.

00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.890
 They're starting to create

00:35:28.890 --> 00:35:30.680
 stuff and be creative and make

00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:31.280
 promos.

00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.550
 It's kind of an organic thing

00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:35.280
 that's happening.

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.280
 And it's growing.

00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:37.960
 It's kind of like a raft and

00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:39.800
 everyone's like, we're all kind

00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.280
 of like hooking our dingies

00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:43.280
 together.

00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.280
 It really is sweet.

00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:46.830
 I really got to stop smoking

00:35:46.830 --> 00:35:48.120
 dope when we have these

00:35:48.120 --> 00:35:49.280
 conversations.

00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:50.280
 Really?

00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.050
 Yeah, let's be clear about that

00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:52.280
.

00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.470
 I was in Vancouver a few weeks

00:35:54.470 --> 00:35:56.280
 ago at a blog dinner.

00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.470
 They had a dinner there in my

00:35:58.470 --> 00:35:59.280
 honor.

00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.980
 And they were going, they

00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:02.620
 pointed out to me, we were

00:36:02.620 --> 00:36:03.910
 walking down Kiffin in the

00:36:03.910 --> 00:36:04.280
 street.

00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:06.050
 They said, there's Vancouver's

00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:07.460
 hash bars, you know, like

00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:08.280
 Amsterdam.

00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.280
 I said, oh, that's nice.

00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:11.280
 They said, do you want to go?

00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.280
 I said, no, I don't see that.

00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.280
 And they said, really?

00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:16.570
 We thought you were doing that

00:36:16.570 --> 00:36:17.280
 all the time.

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.740
 And I said, well, that's

00:36:19.740 --> 00:36:22.280
 somebody else doing it.

00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:23.330
 Yeah, but it's like, you're

00:36:23.330 --> 00:36:24.280
 kind of like Patricia.

00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:26.280
 You guys are naturally stoned.

00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:27.650
 You're at a certain level all

00:36:27.650 --> 00:36:28.280
 the time.

00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:29.280
 No, I know.

00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:30.140
 And I think it's something,

00:36:30.140 --> 00:36:30.810
 maybe because you're almost

00:36:30.810 --> 00:36:32.460
 similar age, you know, maybe it

00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:33.280
's just something that happens.

00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:34.640
 Well, it's all that THC, you

00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:36.180
 know, doesn't flush out of your

00:36:36.180 --> 00:36:37.280
 system after a while.

00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.890
 He was also a child of the 60s,

00:36:39.890 --> 00:36:41.280
 believe you me.

00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.190
 Well, I'm not quite a child of

00:36:43.190 --> 00:36:44.280
 the 60s.

00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.580
 You know, when I go through the

00:36:45.580 --> 00:36:47.640
 oldies racks, I tend to end up

00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.770
 in the 70s, not to see the

00:36:49.770 --> 00:36:50.280
 disco shit.

00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.450
 And it was a little depressing,

00:36:52.450 --> 00:36:53.280
 actually.

00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:54.670
 I kind of wish I was from the

00:36:54.670 --> 00:36:55.280
 60s.

00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.800
 But, you know, on the other

00:36:57.800 --> 00:36:59.660
 hand, I missed the draft, which

00:36:59.660 --> 00:37:01.280
 I thought was pretty cool.

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.280
 Yeah, life is nice.

00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:04.280
 Yeah.

00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.280
 So there we go.

00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:07.390
 So I'm in the band with, we'll

00:37:07.390 --> 00:37:08.280
 figure that one out.

00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.260
 So we've sort of like covered

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:12.430
 all the four different sides of

00:37:12.430 --> 00:37:14.810
 the pool, you know, the pool

00:37:14.810 --> 00:37:15.280
 puzzle.

00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.800
 And I guess, overall, we'd like

00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.280
 to work with people like that.

00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.330
 Yeah, and there's something

00:37:22.330 --> 00:37:23.760
 else there, which is kind of

00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.280
 like an X factor,

00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.820
 which Tony Kong from WGBH,

00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.810
 Morning Stories podcast, he

00:37:29.810 --> 00:37:34.280
 calls it civility.

00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.150
 He says there's something going

00:37:36.150 --> 00:37:37.650
 on that goes beyond these

00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:39.280
 podcasts and the shows.

00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.930
 And of course, it's similar to

00:37:40.930 --> 00:37:42.530
 what happens on web logs, only

00:37:42.530 --> 00:37:43.740
 it has a whole different

00:37:43.740 --> 00:37:44.280
 dimension,

00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.710
 where people are, you know,

00:37:46.710 --> 00:37:48.740
 there's civility being

00:37:48.740 --> 00:37:50.980
 maintained and created amongst

00:37:50.980 --> 00:37:52.280
 podcasters.

00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:53.280
 Yeah.

00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.450
 And I'm not very good at

00:37:55.450 --> 00:37:58.280
 explaining it, but he is.

00:37:58.280 --> 00:37:59.630
 Well, I'll give you a good

00:37:59.630 --> 00:38:00.280
 example.

00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:01.960
 And he had that guy, I don't

00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.430
 remember his name, the

00:38:03.430 --> 00:38:05.660
 production manager from Morning

00:38:05.660 --> 00:38:06.280
 Stories,

00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.740
 who had lost, I guess, the

00:38:08.740 --> 00:38:11.590
 feeling in one side of his body

00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:13.280
 had lost all of that.

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.030
 And had never told the story to

00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:16.280
 anybody but Tony.

00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:17.280
 Right.

00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.030
 He goes on to, and he explained

00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:22.590
 that it actually is a problem

00:38:22.590 --> 00:38:23.280
 for him,

00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.090
 because it isn't something that

00:38:25.090 --> 00:38:26.950
 you get to talk about the first

00:38:26.950 --> 00:38:27.280
 time you meet somebody,

00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.280
 or even the second or third.

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.130
 And usually you go out to beers

00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:33.190
 with them, you know, a few

00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:34.280
 times, and then, you know,

00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:35.590
 maybe you feel comfortable

00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:36.280
 explaining it.

00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.770
 But he still, like, he could

00:38:38.770 --> 00:38:40.860
 not, when he shook somebody's

00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:42.280
 hand, he had a lot of trouble

00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.280
 letting go.

00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.280
 Right, right, right.

00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:46.180
 And that would sort of like

00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:48.280
 freak people out sometimes.

00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:50.290
 And so now he felt like this

00:38:50.290 --> 00:38:52.750
 was a safe environment, and he

00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:54.620
 could tell his story, and now

00:38:54.620 --> 00:38:55.280
 basically,

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.340
 you know, and I understood what

00:38:57.340 --> 00:38:59.570
 he was doing, because in blogs

00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:01.280
 I tend to tell my truth,

00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.010
 not everything, but the things

00:39:03.010 --> 00:39:04.290
 that I really want to talk

00:39:04.290 --> 00:39:05.280
 about publicly,

00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.280
 I generally enjoy as I do it.

00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.640
 And it isn't really a safe

00:39:09.640 --> 00:39:11.280
 environment.

00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:13.280
 It feels safe in a minute.

00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:15.700
 But they've done some really

00:39:15.700 --> 00:39:18.280
 elegant work there at WGBH.

00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.280
 Indeed, yeah, really.

00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.260
 Yeah, and I had a meeting

00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:25.650
 yesterday with Seattle Times

00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:27.620
 people, and had the same

00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:28.280
 feeling.

00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.030
 You know, the nice thing about

00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:31.680
 this one is that there isn't

00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:34.280
 the animus that existed between

00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:35.980
 the print reporters and the

00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:37.280
 bloggers.

00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.040
 The print reporters really

00:39:39.040 --> 00:39:41.280
 weren't very nice, generally.

00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:42.490
 They worked, of course,

00:39:42.490 --> 00:39:43.870
 exceptions, with the print

00:39:43.870 --> 00:39:45.580
 reporters like Dan Gilmour, who

00:39:45.580 --> 00:39:47.280
 became bloggers.

00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.280
 But for the most part, they

00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.280
 were not very nice to us.

00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.040
 The radio people are quite

00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:55.280
 enthusiastic about podcasts,

00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:58.280
 and it's happening so quickly.

00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.450
 I don't think there's enough

00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:01.990
 time for any organized

00:40:01.990 --> 00:40:03.820
 opposition to, well, at least

00:40:03.820 --> 00:40:04.280
 the help.

00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:06.160
 Yeah, well, and you're

00:40:06.160 --> 00:40:07.280
 absolutely right.

00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:08.400
 Radio people have been on this

00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:09.280
 from the beginning.

00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:10.900
 And I remember telling you, "Sh

00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:12.280
it, man, look at this.

00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:13.750
 You're the guy that created the

00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:15.280
 fucking product called Radio."

00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.550
 I mean, you knew this 10 years

00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:19.280
 ago.

00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:20.860
 Well, what I used to say to

00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:22.810
 people was they'd say, "Well,

00:40:22.810 --> 00:40:25.060
 there's play music," and I said

00:40:25.060 --> 00:40:25.280
, "Yeah."

00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:26.530
 They said, "Well, you can't

00:40:26.530 --> 00:40:27.280
 call it radio.

00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:29.460
 There's talk radio, too. Come

00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:30.660
 on. People talk on the radio,

00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:31.280
 don't they?"

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.940
 I mean, you know, I'm an

00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:35.280
 asshole.

00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:36.750
 I should have seen this so much

00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:38.990
 earlier, and I could have saved

00:40:38.990 --> 00:40:40.280
 millions of dollars

00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.470
 and countless hours of aggra

00:40:42.470 --> 00:40:44.280
vation leading up to--

00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:45.430
 That's what I was trying to

00:40:45.430 --> 00:40:46.280
 tell you, man.

00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.280
 No, I understand.

00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.330
 I saw you spend all this money

00:40:52.330 --> 00:40:54.050
 on Jambi, and I kept looking at

00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:54.280
 it.

00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:55.690
 I was like, "I'm trying to tell

00:40:55.690 --> 00:40:56.280
 you now."

00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.000
 I was like, "That's what I want

00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:58.280
.

00:40:58.280 --> 00:40:59.520
 You have to have an office

00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:00.660
 building full of production

00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:01.280
 people."

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:02.630
 And I was going, "Fuck, that's

00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:04.360
 what I need. I need those

00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:05.280
 people."

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.940
 I had the software then, and so

00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:10.280
 it waits.

00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:11.660
 What happens is we wait another

00:41:11.660 --> 00:41:13.280
 10 years before it happens.

00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:14.910
 But now we're not going away,

00:41:14.910 --> 00:41:16.280
 okay? You and I--

00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:18.280
 It's only been 40 years.

00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:19.840
 We're going to have trouble, I

00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:21.310
 think, explaining to the

00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:22.280
 business people

00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:23.960
 why we are being so particular

00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:25.280
 about how we do this.

00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:26.910
 That's how they're going to see

00:41:26.910 --> 00:41:27.280
 it.

00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:28.440
 They're going to see us as

00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.860
 being difficult and insisting

00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:31.280
 on things that, you know,

00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.900
 "Oh, they're just being like,

00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:34.280
 artistic or whatever."

00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:35.280
 Correct.

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.280
 Part of that is correct.

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.040
 Well, I mean, it isn't worth

00:41:40.040 --> 00:41:41.280
 doing if this just turns into

00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:41.280
 another

00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.280
 sitcom reality TV show.

00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:44.780
 Sorry, I'm not willing to do

00:41:44.780 --> 00:41:45.280
 that.

00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:46.710
 You can go get somebody else to

00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:47.280
 do that.

00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.280
 I don't need to do that.

00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:49.030
 I could actually be on the

00:41:49.030 --> 00:41:50.280
 sitcom and make more money

00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.280
 doing less work.

00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.830
 Yeah, well, I couldn't. I'm not

00:41:53.830 --> 00:41:55.280
 as pretty as you are.

00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.100
 No, I mean, you could totally

00:41:57.100 --> 00:41:58.280
 be Archie Bunker.

00:41:58.280 --> 00:41:59.300
 Okay, I could be Archie Bunker.

00:41:59.300 --> 00:42:00.280
 Thank you.

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.280
 I really want to do that.

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.950
 That is what I've put in my

00:42:03.950 --> 00:42:05.280
 plan for this year.

00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.280
 It's your exit strategy, Dave.

00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.530
 It's your career being Archie B

00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:11.280
unker.

00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:12.910
 Yeah, so they're going to see

00:42:12.910 --> 00:42:14.490
 it as being difficult, but we

00:42:14.490 --> 00:42:15.280
've got to get that.

00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:16.650
 We've got to get those, that

00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:17.900
 building full of production

00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:18.280
 people.

00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:20.280
 We need to offer facilities.

00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:21.970
 We need to have people whose

00:42:21.970 --> 00:42:23.710
 job it is to make sure that the

00:42:23.710 --> 00:42:25.280
 bandwidth stays working.

00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:26.280
 Right.

00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:27.730
 You know, I don't want to have

00:42:27.730 --> 00:42:29.280
 to write every line of code.

00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.280
 I can't do it.

00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.030
 That's what we learned at User

00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:35.050
 Land, basically, is that if I

00:42:35.050 --> 00:42:36.760
 take on more and more and more

00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:37.280
 responsibility,

00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:39.480
 I end up in the hospital with

00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:41.280
 my check practices.

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:42.760
 I'm not going to be doing that

00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:43.280
 again.

00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:44.280
 That's a downer.

00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:45.280
 Not for business.

00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.740
 A real downer. That is not

00:42:46.740 --> 00:42:47.280
 worth it.

00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.630
 Yeah, it was kind of a bummer,

00:42:48.630 --> 00:42:49.280
 actually.

00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.280
 A downer?

00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.280
 Yeah, that's all right.

00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:53.840
 It had it's silver lining, like

00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.280
 they always do.

00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:56.280
 Yeah.

00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.280
 Yeah.

00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.280
 Anyway.

00:42:58.280 --> 00:42:59.900
 So, yeah, all right. Well, we

00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.280
'll get past that.

00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:02.750
 Yeah, so you think we've

00:43:02.750 --> 00:43:04.280
 covered enough for one, Tracy?

00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:05.750
 Tell them when we've been

00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:06.280
 talking.

00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.280
 Let me just check here.

00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.280
 About 40 minutes.

00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:12.280
 I think that's perfect.

00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.200
 I think it's perfect for the

00:43:14.200 --> 00:43:15.280
 walk to end.

00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.280
 I think so, man.

00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:18.730
 You're going to play some music

00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:19.280
 on here?

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:20.720
 How about some of the civius b

00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:21.280
itties?

00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:23.820
 Oh, dude, I'm so in love with

00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:24.280
 them.

00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.280
 Me too. See, it works, Adam.

00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.280
 It fucking works. It works.

00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:29.280
 And you know what?

00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.280
 They're selling CDs.

00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:33.280
 People are buying CDs.

00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.280
 I know. I was in your show.

00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:38.830
 It's like, it's, it's, it's,

00:43:38.830 --> 00:43:39.280
 hey, that's the,

00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:40.800
 And they're, and you want them

00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:41.280
 something?

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.880
 I got to say this, man, they're

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:44.280
 fucking worth it.

00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:45.280
 Yeah.

00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:46.530
 They play beautiful music. They

00:43:46.530 --> 00:43:47.280
 have a soul.

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.870
 They're, you know, they're not

00:43:48.870 --> 00:43:51.280
 like, they're accessible.

00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:52.880
 I feel like I go hang out and

00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.280
 drink a beer with them.

00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:55.280
 We have a lot of fun.

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:56.410
 Well, okay, so let's play some

00:43:56.410 --> 00:43:58.280
 of the civius bitties on our

00:43:58.280 --> 00:43:58.280
 way out.

00:43:58.280 --> 00:43:59.790
 And we'll get the fuck out of

00:43:59.790 --> 00:44:00.280
 here.

00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:02.280
 Right on. See you later.

00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:03.280
 Okay.

00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.280
 All right.

00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.280
 Bye. Take care, Dave.

00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:07.280
 Okay.

00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:11.770
 It's not like he doesn't know

00:44:11.770 --> 00:44:16.700
 just what to say to make you

00:44:16.700 --> 00:44:18.280
 feel right.

00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.280
 Stay up nights.

00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.280
 Think of him all day.

00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:29.480
 Well, his song is true, but his

00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:36.280
 head keeps getting in the way.

00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:46.930
 No, it's not like he's got a

00:44:46.930 --> 00:44:49.280
 nasty disposition.

00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:51.580
 He wants to keep you locked up

00:44:51.580 --> 00:44:54.780
 tight, knocked up right bare

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:58.280
foot in the kitchen.

00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:09.380
 He's a hell of a boy, but only,

00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:15.280
 only half of a man.

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:21.110
 No, it's not like the boys are

00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:25.280
 bad-aid, born on the wrong side

00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.280
 of town, under the wrong

00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:32.280
 roof, on the wrong day.

00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:38.890
 He's a hell of a boy, but only,

00:45:38.890 --> 00:45:43.280
 only half of a man.

00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:49.280
 Half of a man.

00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.850
 Just what do you think you will

00:45:51.850 --> 00:45:54.280
 get if you persist thinking

00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:57.280
 this is the best you can do?

00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.650
 Say no to your life, girl, or

00:45:59.650 --> 00:46:02.600
 before you know it, your life's

00:46:02.600 --> 00:46:05.280
 going to say no to you.

00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:14.280
 Easy come, easy go.

00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:24.280
 Life's too short to live it so.

00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:28.620
 No, it's not like it's more

00:46:28.620 --> 00:46:32.850
 than you can stand to have that

00:46:32.850 --> 00:46:36.280
 pretty boy sitting next to you,

00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:41.280
 kissing you, holding your hand.

00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:47.890
 He's a hell of a boy, but only,

00:46:47.890 --> 00:46:52.280
 only half of a man.

00:46:52.280 --> 00:47:07.940
 He's a hell of a boy, but only,

00:47:07.940 --> 00:47:18.280
 only half of a man.